UPDATE: Amy A. Winnemore of the Delaware County News Network also has a short interview.
Sidenote about the conversation that sprang up in this comments on this post: It is the policy of this site that people are entitled to their opinions and preferences, and as long as they express them in a respectful manner — respectful to fellow posters here and also to the performers they are discussing — this site has no problem with a civil debate. With a couple of notorious exceptions, you folks have done that admirably and we salute you. There are still a few people who are stuck in the winter of 1993. Our experience tells us that the best way to respond is to not respond. But if you must respond, keep in mind that it is not your preference or opinion, but the way you express it, that will determine whether or not your comment is deleted.
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And it’s not “Being stuck in the winter of 1993”:
Imagine if Bill Clinton had left office, left Al Gore in charge, and on Inauguration Day, Gore suddenly, Mission: Impossible style, pulled off a rubber mask, revealed himself to be Adam Sandler, appointed Rob Schneider as his chief of staff, and mandated viewings of “Jack & Jill” by law.
Yes, Joel thought Mike “wrote clever riffs” and did funny imitations–I’m sure David Letterman thought the same thing about Chris Elliott when he left the NBC show, but that don’t mean I’m watching “Cabin Boy”.
Some of us aren’t being “stuck” or anal-retentive, we’re just looking for equal time and asking, “Where’s the outrage?”…Will fans here be spoon-fed ANYTHING that comes down the show’s pipeline, or just weren’t there to know any better?
Mediocrity is one thing, betrayal is another–We have opinions, too, and they’re based on a little more to work with.
Imagine if Bill Clinton had left office, left Al Gore in charge, and on Inauguration Day, Gore suddenly, Mission: Impossible style, pulled off a rubber mask, revealed himself to be Adam Sandler, appointed Rob Schneider as his chief of staff, and mandated viewings of “Jack & Jill” by law.
Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
:roll:
Comparing Mike era MST to Jack and Jill is a bit harsh. Besides, Gore was against using torture.
@4 – I’ve gotten the feeling Joel was not enamored with the somewhat negative tone of both the Sci fi era (seems like the atmosphere was still more light and playful even into the last of the Comedy Central days) and rifftrax from other interviews as well, but this one even moreso. I think both approaches have their bullet points though depending on the movie so to each their own. But it’s kind of hard to expect someone to have the type of pseudo-affection Joel is talking about for big budget modern crap like Transformers and Twilight.
I can’t recall the J-episode, but there’s one where Servo, to fill time, starts experimenting with doing the “tee-hee…snigger!” overdone smug-giggling that would later become the trademark of Season 6 and onwards, and Joel ad-libs something to the effect of “please STOP that.”
More to the direct concern that it was just darn annoying at the time, but it does symbolize the rift of the humor: Joel wanted the show to be Found Humor, and the appeal of found humor is that it’s so there for all to see that ANYONE can find it. That’s probably why the J-fans have such loyalty, the audience felt they shared in the joke on a common level: We could stare at Mr. B Natural, and a riff about “We’d like to apologize to everyone in the world for this…” was merely icing on the cake.
When comics go in with baseball bats saying “Some movies have it coming”, that’s more a sense of the standup comic going in to wrestle with his own immature demons at the expense of the audience, and on the audience’s own paycheck, and there’s nothing that drives a wedge between themselves and the audience faster. We may shrug off bad actors or bad singers, but there’s one reason audiences feel such murderous hostility toward a mediocre comic, and it’s the dark side of Mark Twain’s “I became a humorist and haven’t worked a day since”–A comic who basically shrugs off any discipline of humor and uses his paying gig to live his high-school years into his forties is doing it on somebody else’s money, and when he’s doing it on somebody else’s copyrighted show, that’s not slacking, that’s just disrespect. Joel was originally attracted by Mike’s bad-boy appeal on the standup stage, and that he “didn’t really care what the audience thought”…Gosh, just imagine.
I can appreciate that the “Guys, that is TOO dark” routines on “Here Comes the Circus” and Santa/Martians sound a little scripted, but it’s hard not to imagine there was a little real growing creative friction between the two factions of the show–The one that wanted the surprise of found humor, and the one that wanted the locker-room thrill of bad-boy humor. Fans talk about the “brain drain” after Trace and Frank, as more of the found-humor comics left the show, and the name-obsessed bully-humor comics–who didn’t really seem to functionally know what “Acting funny” was except that they’d seen in it in a Woody Allen movie or Jeannie episode–thought they were there to just drive-by comments about fat guys, Renfests and the A-V Club, and crank out insults on demand.
I remember back during the Usenet rec.mst3k days, we had some strangle-worthy foreign cartoon-fan idiot asking us nonstop to write “MSTings” of every 90’s cartoon episode he was enamored with, and we had to repeatedly explain that we weren’t a music box you could crank, and that we didn’t point at a tree and come up with a hundred dutch-elm-disease jokes for it; the movie had to in some way deserve it BY deserving it–I can’t help getting that same feeling every time RT tries to find 101 Jokes About Twilight just because they want to bully the fanboys.
Like the Eloi and the Morlocks, the two paths of evolution for the show’s staff were allowed to pursue their individual directions–CT for the found humor of bizarre entries, RT for Geek-of-the-Week–it was just putting them in the same room and asking us to plausibly believe that they were the best of brothers with hugs and smiles and equally devoted discipline to the job that creates a little tension.
damn, man, you should really just relax. You talk about Mike era MST like it’s Bill Hicks, Denis Leary and Sam Kinison hosting a roast at a strip club while they beat up children. Or something. I must be missing something when I watch the Mike era that you see as so immature and bullying. And I like the Joel episodes way more than the Mike shows. I think you’re a smart guy who makes some good points, and I’m sure you’re a great person, but most of your points get dismissed by the almost vindicative nature of your posts. You really sound like Mike Nelson hurt you (no matter how many smiley faces you put at the end of your comments).
If you find Mike era MST “dangerous” and Mike Nelson a “bad boy” I hope you haven’t tried to watch an episode of South Park or Louie.
#52 – whoah, that looks like a pretty funny Ron Paul reference.
I hope that’s what it was. Otherwise, I’m sad. Because if there’s one nutjob that deserves a pokey-poke, it’s Ron Paul.
sorry if I directed my comments at Eric J, Sampo. Delete if you must. It’s all love.
I can’t believe Joel denounced the Spin Doctors in an interview! And how is it I never knew Jim Mallon played rhythm guitar in Nickleback?!
If you find Mike era MST “dangerous” and Mike Nelson a “bad boy” I hope you haven’t tried to watch an episode of South Park or Louie.
I’ve watched quite a few South Parks, and for one, the episode where Cartman explains why Family Guy Is Evil does so more eloquently than I ever could, and believe me, I’ve tried. :)
(After “Drawn Together” was canceled, the producers did a very thinly-disguised sour-grapes reunion movie where the characters fourth-wall wonder “We did shock-humor too, why were WE treated like pariahs?” and a faux-South Park character tells them “Try having an actual point to your shock-humor, like we did.”)
There’s no point to the Mike humor, it’s, well, balding high-school guys holding a roast in a strip club. When RT feels they “have” to riff on Halloween because they wanted to sell something in October, were they actually harboring some grudge at the excesses of John Carpenter, or did they just feel themselves so immortal that they could make up anything about anything?
There are some who love the Santa Claus line about “Equal-opportunity offenders”, but to others, there’s nothing damn duller on this earth: There’s a fantasy persona all comics create with their audience, and that the audience believe the standup comic really IS venting his own iconoclastic personal opinions with them in a rap session and asking for a little voice-in-the-wilderness agreement. The comic who tries to make himself the naughty “bad-boy” of every sacred cow comes off as just a big fat insincere fraud, and our collective audience mind starts wandering toward theories for why he wants to spend so much of his professional time wanting to be a big fat insincere fraud who doesn’t even seem to harbor any gratitude toward the people paying him…We’re not obligated to, you know.
Ok, here’s my two cents.
As someone who wasn’t alive during the flame wars, I must ask, what’s the big deal? To each their own. It’s like every political debate known to man; you can yammer on all you want, but the chances of you changing someone’s mind are slim to none. My parent’s are split between the two hosts, and it’s not like their choice is tearing our family apart at the seams, so why should it tear apart an otherwise solid fanbase?
Now, we should focus our hate toward something more worthwhile: the one they call Mallon. ;)
It’s easy to say “what’s the big deal?”, MiniMSTie, but clearly some people are still hurting, and DEEPly. I find this very bizarre to say the least.
Okay, Mike, the joke was funny a few times, but pretending to be “EricJ” is a waste of your time. Get back to writing riffs!
I think the debate here differs a lot from the 1993 fracas. That one was simply about Joel vs. Mike as performers – the shows built around them were basically identical at that point.
This one is about styles of comedy. Eric J. makes some good points, although he carries them to much more extreme conclusions than I would; and he seems to really dislike Rifftrax, where I like it, just not as well as CT.
My only problem comes when someone looks at the Comedy Central shows and says they’re not as funny as the later ones, only because they don’t identify with the generational humor. Not “I prefer”, but “they’re not as funny”.
It’s as if I listened to an old Fred Allen radio show, which were very topical, and declared that they weren’t funny, simply because I don’t know what was going on in 1945.
Would I be okay in saying, “I don’t get it”, and “I like Howard Stern better”? Of course – everyone has their preference. But I’d be selling Fred Allen short if I say Howard Stern’s inherently funnier.
Re: #61
As someone who wasn’t alive during the flame wars
And thank you, MiniMST, for my thunderous mortality reminder for the day. Holy cow. I used to post on the Prodigy MST boards. I’m going to head into a corner and quietly die now.
So is Mike Nelson the only locker room bully to ever have been involved in musical theater?
I’m sure Mike was bullying everyone in that musical theater. Thankfully, they were blind to his big AND fat insecurities.
Seriously though, I will enjoy CT live later tonight. After that, I might enjoy the RT treatment of a Potter movie.
I don’t really care for Joel or Mike. Steve Allen was the best,he invented MST you know.
@Brian, haha I’ve been wondering the same thing. I always felt like Mike or whoever else’s nerd bashing was kind of done with a wink since they were all kind of nerdy themselves. I mean, they all worked on a puppet show set in space.
Anyway, I’m not going to argue with Eric anymore since frankly his arguments are much more thought out than mine and there’s obviously no changing his mind. It’s just like arguing with a hardcore right or left wing person. I’ll give you one thing though, Eric, you never personally attack anyone on here even as we ridicule you and call you out all the time and for that I applaud you. I also hope you don’t waste your writing talent strictly arguing about a tv show that was cancelled over a decade ago. Cheers.
Re: #65
It’s not the years in a life but the life in the years. -Abraham Lincoln
Life? Don’t talk to me about LIFE. -Marvin the Paranoid Android.
But I digress, and I will shut up now.
@69 – Well, I have other things, but a nice Joel-era defense gets my ideals clarified when I need them.
I will, however, caution not get me started on kiddy fans of the gay New Doctor Who on SyFy, who think Billie Piper came from heaven (those who think I overdo on Mike have never seen me after someone mentions Rose Tyler), and yet have never heard of Tom Baker or Louise Jameson in their lives…Nothing so morally outrages my sense of social justice like revisionist history accepted without question. :)
DON’T use gay as an insult, DON’T try to change the topic, and DON’t bring the doctor into this! I love the new doctor who, think Rose Tyler came from heaven, AND own a Tom Baker scarf. I even cut my hair to look like Sarah Jane.
Wow, I came to this site looking for nice conversation and walk into this. Can’t we just drop it here?
wow – “it’s just a show(s), you really should just relax….”
I am personally very thankful that virtually everyone involved with mst3k in any era are still
riffing away and making us laugh and are generating a good amount of output.
I feel we are all VERY lucky that they are all doing what makes us laugh – seems like that gets taken
for granted….and that we have so much choice in era’s, style,….whatever suits your particular tastes.
I love it all!!
Let’s see. From season one through 10 somebody named Mike Nelson was called the head writer. I wonder if that means he had something to do with the humor or enjoyability of the show from the first season till the last (and he can’t be blamed for KTMA which so many dislike…not me).
Let’s see. Someone named Joel came up with the idea of Mystery Science Theater 3000 and created these robots to play with.
Guess that means if you don’t like Joel or you don’t like Mike…you must not like MST3K. What are you doing on this site in the first place.
Now old Doctor Who vs new Doctor Who….no contest….old is better.
Yeah, EricJ. “Gay” as an insult is Not Cool, and it makes you sound like a twelve-year-old.
Two items: If Mike and Joel and everybody would also wear Tom Baker Scarves, I would like them 8% more.
Also, I always wanted to see Cinematic Titanic start a show with a short West Side story spoof- Maria is Mary Jo and the gangs are rifftrax and cinematic folk circling each other in a mock fight. And yes, Doctor Who scarves would make that 8% better as well.
Thirds item in this two item list: K-9 meeting the bots on the satellite of love.
Happy New Year folks,and I look forward to seeing Cinematice Titanic for the first time at Proctors in lovely (no sniggering) Schenectady, NY.
In the worry of throwing gas on the fire, I have to admit that Cinematic Titanic and Riff Trax have not clicked for me like Mystery Science Theater 3000. There just doesn’t seem to be the same amount of effort or focus in the writing and performances. It could be the change of joke and presentation style too.
Please let me note, these creators are all people I respect for what they had produced with MST3K, and to continue accomplishing such efforts with such energy can dwindle for anyone. But at this time I can not find reason to see their live shows or get any of the CT and RT episodes. I will regularly check in to their trailers to see if there is anything that eventually tickles my funny bone. Momentarily though, I regret to admit that I have yet to be sold.
Doctor Who… The Hell Cares?
I agree….the Spin Doctors do indeed inhale briskly.
why cant we have a debate on who was the better cambot the odd rectangle shaped one from season 2 :no: or the futuristic soccer ball shape from season 10 :yes:
That cambot from the mike era was such a bully.
EricJ sez “and we had to repeatedly explain that we weren’t a music box you could crank”
Aww, look at Derek Janssen use the term “we” in regards to the MST newsgroups, as if he wasn’t completely ostracized and kill-filed by almost everyone who used those groups.
The idea of painting Mike Nelson as an edgy, blue comic is really odd to me. That’s not the basis of his humor….not even close. Not that it offends me at all, but, CT has far more cursing than RT.
Given that I participated in this thread early, I want to clearly articulate my thoughts for posterity:
I am a huge fan of both Joel and Mike. I consider them to be two of the funniest humans ever. They have genuinely made my life better through their work. I’m grateful that they’re both still in the riffing game. I feel comparing RT and CT is a bit unfair b/c RT has so much more material….and I feel that material is much stronger than it’s given credit for sometimes. But, I 100% respect the personal preferences of fans and understand that not everyone has the same taste.
Finally, I forgot to mention Abraxas when listing my favorite RT’s. That one never fails to make me laugh, particularly the scenes when Jesse “The Body” is trying to act sweet and sensitive. Or any time the villain speaks. Or whenever someone’s Canadian accent is evident. Basically, the entire film.
EricJ referred to the new doctor as happy. How is that insulting?
(Just as drift-control, Who producer Russell T. Davies DID come out years ago, back when he was producer on the UK “Queer as Folk”–I certainly don’t remember Robert Holmes or John Nathan Turner ever did jokes about reality shows and the Doctor ended up on the Big Brother set…Although if TV Guide Channel ever aired the series, we’d probably get a lot more of them. ;)
And the only reason I’d mentioned it was to kid that section of next-generation Who fans who say “You mean there was a show BEFORE the SyFy Channel?…No way, that’s the one I grew up on, SyFy rules!” Good thing we’re not like that.)
Is this all coming back up because I said Joel didn’t insult Rifftrax in that interview? Wow.
I would be willing to bet that much of the Joel/Mike favoritism can be traced to when you started watching MST3K.
I started Turkey Day ’92. I much prefer Joel episodes on the whole, although I love Season 8 a bunch too.
LOVE MST3K, like CT and RT. The only thing I hate is what happened to make Joel leave, but if he’s cool and civil about it, then what right do any of us have to be indignant?
I just watched Time of the Apes and Mighty Jack on DVD for Christmas. We should all be thankful the show hasn’t disappeared and is selling stronger than ever.
JOIN US!
Stuff Proven from our perfectly fair, self-serving kind of debate where nobody really listens to each other:
1. Joel is a nice guy, and whether he is taking a dig at some other person’s business or not, he is still going to be a nice guy about the whole thing, and harmless in a way unique to sleepy-eyed fellows. I’m talking “even in a bad temper he’d probably still help you with moving your furniture or something like that” kind of nice. That’s Joel for you, me, and everyone who cares.
2. Those 2 main guys from the show have grown into people you may now either love, leave, or openly resent, especially whilst on the internet. I mean, what else are you doing?
3. Once again, Joel is such a nice guy and good role model that even our resident troll consistently uses the same alias so true fans can know exactly which comment(s) to just skip over. It’s a type of politeness that can’t be beat, not even by deeply hurtful movies or comment threads.
@Mitchell, agreed. I still have yet to find a person who started watching during the Mike era who likes Joel better (not that I’ve been thoroughly looking). I think it’s mostly nostalgia winning again.
PETE58 #80> Neither Cambot you mention is good. I’m parial to the season 1 Cambot as it so cleverly reuses the KTMA Gypsy.
I had jello today
I had always hoped that one day Mike would escape and a new person would be sent up to the SOL. And repeat this process every few years. Oh well…..
Wow. This Joel vs. Mike thing won’t die, will it?
I read both interviews and I think too much is being read into Joel’s comments. Nothing he says can be considered a direct jab at Rifftrax or Mike.
Personally, I prefer Joel’s run as host on MST3K. This could be due to the fact I watched him first, who knows? Everyone is entitled to an opinion and choice regarding hosts. No one is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’.
I can tell you when I met Joel and company almost two years ago at a CT live show, he could not have been more gracious. Ditto that regarding Trace and Josh.
Bottom line, I prefer MST3K (especially the Comedy Central years) to most of what I have heard of CT and Rifftrax. I am just grateful both teams are still around to make us laugh and yes, I would love to see them all team up just once on a film.