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Next from Cinematic Titanic…“The Alien Factor” live. Coming Feb. 23. Here’s a sneak peak:
112 Replies to “Next from Cinematic Titanic…”Commenting at Satellite News
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The only mention that CT will return to the studio releases (at least to my knowledge) is from the Wikipedia entry:
When asked if this meant the demise of the studio produced DVDs, J. Elvis Weinstein said “No, studio releases will return at some point in the future.”
…but I take this with a grain of salt. First of all, “at some point” couldn’t be more vague, and for someone hoping to see them go back to the studio releases, that’s doesn’t translate to “in the immediate future.” Plus, it absolutely has to be cheaper to produce the LIVE versions of these DVDs, and as stated in hundreds of interviews and articles featuring Joel & others, they’ve stated how much they love performing live and how that is where they are best and what they love most about this project… so why would they go back to the pricier-to-produce studio DVDs? Maybe they will… Maybe they won’t… but, God, I hope they do.
And as I’ve already stated, I do own the “East Meets Watts” DVD. I think from a writing and performing standpoint, it is the best CT installment to date, but the LIVE aspect takes away from the experience for me. As mentioned by me and others, its the obnoxiousness of the “canned laughter” effect from the overly excited LIVE audience. I know these audiences because I’ve seen them do “Danger on Tiki Island” LIVE. For a LIVE event, that’s fine, but if you don’t find something particularly funny, you don’t want to hear some dork cackling with laughter and slapping his hands together on a DVD. In this particular clip, the audience actually seems louder than on “East Meets Watts.” If they could cut that track back, I might not really give a crap about the audience thing, but it is too much in the forefront of the mix. And, given the audio issues that are already inherent in talking over a movie, this is completely unwanted. I’ve attended a live CT event, enjoyed it, but I want my studio DVDs in the not too distant future! These are just my opinions, which I don’t expect everyone to agree with, and if you don’t agree, then screw you… I mean, that’s fine. Drive to the next window, please.
Steve VIl, what about it?
You don’t get to see: The warm-up, provided by Dave “Gruber” Allen. The opening bits, provided by various members of Cinematic Titanic: Mary Jo, Joel, Frank doing “Convoluted Man,” etc. You don’t get to see RAD modeling the latest in CT fashions. These live DVDs leave out the first half-hour of the show. Also, they face the screen when they perform on stage.
What you do get is an all-too-accurate reproduction of the theater’s acoustics, and a smattering of audience reaction (it’s much louder in the middle of the audience). These DVDs, love ’em or leave ’em, are a lot different than being there.
Wow, people are weird.
1. It can’t be “canned” laughter if it’s a live audience.
2. The studio CT performances were very stiff. Despite their history together in various combinations, these 5 performers had never worked onscreen together before and it showed.
3. Some performers do their best work in a live context, with an audience to provide feedback and energy. Based on the “East Meets Watts” DVD, which is easily the best CT release to date, that certainly goes for this group.
4. I like seeing the performers. In East Meets Watts this resulted in at least one hysterical sight gag (a good old fashioned perfectly timed spit take). I also like the more natural interaction between the performers.
5. I have not yet seen CT live (I will when they hit New York) but I saw the last Rifftrax show (which was a simulcast and therefore at one remove from a real live show) and I haven’t laughed so hard since I saw Eddie Izzard live. If you have any chance at all to see either group, I’d urge you to do it.
6. Considering the logistics involved in properly filming, recording, editing and mixing a live show into a presentable form for DVD, calling it a “cheap” alternative is rather odd to me.
Well, that’s my six cents.
Oops, forgot this:
Does anyone else find the CT studio DVDs rather claustrophobic to watch? Having all the live action in silhouette gets really tiresome after a while. In MST, we had frequent breaks; but in the CT studio DVDs, even the bits were in silhouette.
@47
In total agreement with Cubby. Why should everyone suffer because you can’t make it to a LIVE event? Besides, one DVD–East Meets Watts–and you’ve got the basic idea. But nothing can “recreate” the LIVE experience–the good or the bad. The good, which is getting to see a live performance from 5 individuals you truly admire… The bad being the dorky fans who are trying to “out-laugh” the MSTie next to them (plus occasionally throwing in the “laugh-clap of approval” I hate so bloody much). So, the best aspects of the LIVE event aren’t even present on the DVDs, but the worst aspect is presented in full stereo. The audience brings nothing but another audio obstacle to the DVD experience. These are not just a bunch of complaints… These are just personal opinions, and if you don’t want to read them, then don’t click on the “Comments” link, because everyone’s not going to agree.
Can I throw out a complain that East vs. Watts wasn’t numbered on its spine? It’s probably the former Criterion collector in me, but I liked that.
You know what? I’m just happy they’re putting out new DVDs… and I couldn’t be more thrilled to own a copy of Alien Factor!! And since I saw that one live in Philly last year, I’m actually happy it’s gonna be a live version. I really don’t care what format they put stuff out in, as long as they keep putting new stuff out.
[ I don’t have a dog in this fight so let me just say that I am impressed with the variety and depth of opinions on this issue. ]
As someone who was a little cautious about the CT Live DVD idea, I must say that it works. So you can see riffers, so what? Does having them in vague shadows make CT better? If you can’t stand to see the performers, does that mean you also hate the host segments on MST3K? There is nothing wrong CT going this route for their DVD releases.
@59
I’ve read all of the comments posted here, and I don’t think many people have an issue with the visuals on the LIVE releases… Its the audio that is annoying most people… more specifically the laughter of the crowd. I certainly don’t have a problem with the visuals. As the owner of an HDTV, the utilization of the widescreen is about the only thing I liked about the LIVE format.
“Why should everyone suffer because you can’t make it to a LIVE event?”
Aside from the dubious-at-best claim that “everyone” would “suffer” because of a live-recording DVD (really?), why should everyone who can’t make it to a live event “suffer” because you don’t like hearing an audience? A brief glance shows a fair few who prefer the live format. Seems to me in this instance “everyone” means “me the author”. And please, the notion that declaring that something is a personal opinion (even when presented as fact) makes them unassailable (only so long as it’s yours) is laughable at best.
Any rate. This 5-minute preview to me really solidified the problem I’ve had with CT’s presentation. It FEELS like a bunch of people just reading one-liners from a script on-cue. Just because that’s what’s going on, it doesn’t mean that’s what it has to come across as. The ACTING is missing. Early and late-series MST had it, Rifftrax has it… the “conversational”, off-the-cuff feel. People reacting to each other’s lines, even if it’s jsut chuckling. Question-and-answer bits. People referring to each other by name. The acknowledgment that other people are there. Basically, making it seem like just some funny people sitting down and having fun. The live format can help with this somewhat, but really, I’m not seeing MST alumni working at their real potential here.
@61 / 2nd Paragraph.
Agree pretty much completely. I would add that they diminsh the overall quality of the riffing by having just too damn many of them. It’s a race to get everybody’s riffs in, almost regardless of quality ( I bought the first 3 studio DVDs, haven’t seen them live yet, but have a tic for the NY show ).
The audio isn’t bad either. Laughing is there, but it’s a lot quieter than some people might assume. Besides, it’s the CT crew that has microphones, not the audience.
Have to agree with # 62,
The greatest flaw in CT is having so many riffers.
Three seem to work well in MST3000 and The Film Crew.
I’d rather they had various combinations of three of
the five in CT. It would allow for more interaction,
give some time off, and increase interest in seeing
what combinations were in a given movie (and create
endless blog debates :shock: ).
#62 – Yeah, five performers is a bit much. It hampers the ability to give each one their own “voice” and mannerisms to have to keep bouncing around, makes it harder to make them into characters, not just warm bodies delivering lines.
Again, I hate to directly compare to RT, but since we no longer have the puppets to be immediately-distinct characters, giving each human performer their own sense of delivery and tone is even more important. And I think the RT trio (and the occasional guest star, ESPECIALLY Neil Patrick Harris, man, bring him back for another one!) manage to really nail it. I’d love to see CT get to that tone, as their focus on the dank stinky mildewy basement corner of moviemaking is indeed wonderful and needs to keep going.
The live DVDs are the only way I can even see CT live. They’re not coming anywhere near me in the forseeable future. So I will definitely be buying this one (I bought East Meets Watts and LOVED it!). I just wish they would come to South Jersey.
Using the “just another warm body” thought, does anybody else think that Joel has lost a bit of his identity with CT? I mean isn’t he really just another riffer, or is it different when you actually see them live?
I say if it ain’t broke,then don’t fix it.CT has done pretty well so far with 5 riffers and don’t need to par them down to just 3.And what 3 would we use anyway,right?? How about something like a tag team? Would that suffice?? As far as the host segments for CT,I could really do without them because either they are so-so or forgettable,much like the host segments for The Film Crew.By the way,the only time The Film Crew really nailed it is with KILLERS FROM SPACE and that’s it.And does anyone want to bring up the 3 riffer versions of the movies Mike originally done by himself? Most of those jokes were repeated from Mike’s versions.And the live version of Plan 9 was alright,but nothing special.I don’t mind the imperfections or the so-so riffs or the forgettable host segments,what matters is that these people are connecting with their audience again,in one way or another.And if they provide me with even the tiniest bit of laughter,then that’s all that matters.
#33 – Mac:
No, I hadn’t seen that thread yet; pure coincidence. But your glowing recommendation of the Discussion Board got me to finally register. And actually, I agree with what you wrote there: “It’s not the commercials I miss, it’s just the break they afforded.”
@61
First of all, bite me.
Second of all, in answer to your question, “Really?” The answer is “yes.”
@68. I thought that the 4 Filmcrew DVDs were pretty good, with exception of their terrible TERRIBLE host segments.
Yes, if the Titans are happy with their product and making a living off of it, who am I to gripe? I am sure that they are not losing any sleep over MY personal dissappointment.
Tag teaming the riffers on CT is an interesting idea. But if I had to go with 3 riffers only, I’m afraid I would have to cut Frank and Josh ( sorry guys, they asked ).
I don’t watch Rifftrax ( don’t really understand going to the trouble to rent / buy movies I wouldn’t want to watch anyway ).
I loved rifftrax live Plan9, good riffing was only part of it, it was also being in a big room packed with MSTies. MSTies are high quality people.
Good post. But for me, I want more than the tiniest bit of laughter for my sheckels. And I am afraid that’s all I get from CT.
They all live in different places, right? Maybe they don’t have TIME to do the studio versions at the moment, and they figure, since they are all together doing the live versions, they may as well record a few, and have something to release rather than having everyone wait until they can do the studio ones again. I’d like it if they kept doing both. Studio versions to keep up that storyline, whatever it was going to be, and then a smattering of live ones when they can’t get to the studio all at once.
I don’t mind the audience laughter. It’s like watching a stand up doing a show on Comedy Central with an audience or something. It would be really freaky if the audience was to remain silent for the performance. :shock:
Shhh!!! They’re telling jokes! Don’t LAUGH!!!
Crickets chirp…a gust of wind…somewhere a dog howls…
I’d like to point out that my dislike of the live dvd (and the preview of the forthcoming one) was not due to some kind misplaced nostalgia for MST3K/the robots/whatever- it was mostly the audience. When I saw CT live, as I stated before, my problem was more the audience than anything else (Sirhamhat’s comment about people trying to outlaugh each other was spot on- and, at least in my experience, you’d have hardcore fans who’d freak out over every little thing, guffawing over nothing, and casual fans who would be strangely silent if it wasn’t a joke about physical injuries or boobs or something). I’ve liked CT’s output (for the most part), and I would like to see the studio version of the series continue. My hope is that they would offer both versions, if at all possible.
As far as the CT presentation- I think 5 riffers seems a bit crowded, but I like everyone too much to want to see anybody go. The first couple of CTs WERE rather clausterphobic and it seemed that everyone was tripping on each other. I think they kind of figured it out by the time they got to the fourth or fifth installment.
Maybe they don’t have TIME to do the studio versions at the moment,
Mercy sakes. They filmed both of the Live DVDs in L.A. during a week of dates in L.A., which where* they all congregate to film their studio DVDs.
Oh, why introduce facts into your silly hypothetical? Maybe THEIR DOG ATE the studio they were going to film!
*wherever in the Southland their studio is. Does it matter in this thread?
I don’t mind if they release live DVDs, as long as we get proper studio releases, too. Joel says that they used the live performances to hone the material before going into the studio. Great. Hone. Then do it properly for me to enjoy.
One of the things I like about CT (and that I liked about TFC vs. Rifftrax) is the overstory. I’m one of those who loved MST3K for the characters as well as the riffing. Without the characters, without the story (as simple as it is), it’s just some people making fun of a movie. Yes, it can be funny. But it’s not as interesting or engaging.
I really enjoyed the first live DVD and look forward to this one..but…I wouldn’t mind having another studio DVD.
AND…I really like to know what CT is doing with the money they have earned…Do they have plans to buy their own building(like BBI)? Or does all the money simply get doled out to the cast? Are they investing in the future of CT? I don’t expect CT to get a IPO and be listed on the New York stock exchange…..but it’d be interesting to find out if they have ‘bigger’ plans.
I’m not a medium, I’m a petite @ 71 —
I really enjoy the Film Crew DVDs, esp. Wild Women of Wongo (which gets at least as frequent a workout at our house as the classic MSTs), but yes, most of the sketches were horrid — in fact, Wongo had the only one I really liked, Kevin’s “map of the world.”
But yes, my preference for Rifftrax in recent years has been precisely because Kevin, Bill & Mike, besides still being ridiculously funny, bring a warmth and cameraderie to the proceedings that have been missing from most of the CTs. You get the feeling they actually enjoy getting together and doing this, while I’m afraid too often with the CTs, there’s been a definite chilliness to the proceedings. That’s what I felt the live DVD overcame, at least to some degree.
As someone who was a little cautious about the CT Live DVD idea, I must say that it works. So you can see riffers, so what?
For the live DVDs I wouldn’t mind a video option where you could just see the film without the CT members. As it is now the video screen’s a bit too narrow.
Oh, but I have been wounded to the quick… wait, no, I haven’t. I’ve just seen someone be selfish and petulant over entertainment. Hardly new.
#67 – Regarding Joel’s loss of “identity”… I think you’re going to get that anyway with the move away from MST’s setup. The show’s fiction was focused on a single human host and separated him from the others… almost all of their physical and on-camera interaction was with puppets, and the other humans (and semi-humans) were typically on a completely different set. Now that we’ve got groups of, well, people riffing, the former hosts are going to stand out a lot less. Honestly, I was glad to see that Film Crew and CT were less Mike/Joel focused and spread the roles around a bit more.
But, well, five performers barely interacting with each other isn’t helping Joel establish a riffer “identity”.
#40 – “After all I think most would agree the first season of MST was lacking and that should really didn’t begin to peak until season three.”
Amusingly, season 1 has that “conversational” tone I like a lot more than season 3 did. Having Joel explain facets of human culture and moviemaking -and sometimes just making stuff up- really does it for me.
“Is that you, Joel?”
“No, that’s the other Joel. There’s two of us.”
I’m neither selfish or petulant, I merely asked a question, and stated an opinion. But, it doesn’t really matter, I officially quit all MST forums, (not that anybody would care). I just can’t take the arguments anymore.
#81, not you. You were certainly not either.
I love how topics like this start out with very positive and non-confrontational comments, then soon devolve into so much hypersensitive, self-indulgent bellyaching.
Eh, I didn’t order the chop-socky one but this looks pretty good.
Now that they’ve proven the new Live format with their last release, I’m really looking forward to this one. East Meets Watts was hands down the best CT DVD yet, and that was partly due to the spontaneuity and extra liberties they could take. Time to bust open the ol’ piggy-bank (I don’t know why I keep gluing it back together).
#61 “Any rate. This 5-minute preview to me really solidified the problem I’ve had with CT’s presentation. It FEELS like a bunch of people just reading one-liners from a script on-cue. Just because that’s what’s going on, it doesn’t mean that’s what it has to come across as. The ACTING is missing. Early and late-series MST had it, Rifftrax has it… the “conversational”, off-the-cuff feel.”
Totally agree! plus 5 might be too many riffers, it does seem to mess up the flow. I thought the lines were very funny on this new clip, but the delivery still often sounds wooden and lacks a certain hard-to-define something.
#32 & 69 – Finnias Jones,
Thank you. Glad to have you join us there and hope to ‘see’ you on the board soon.
Looks like the comments are about evenly divided regarding studio/live shows. My vote goes for studio with only three riffers. The nine-year-old in me misses the bots, and the 65 year-old in me misses them with Mike/Joel watching the miserable movie in the seat row ahead.
Based on the five minute intro segment I’d say the riffs are still good, but the presentation and audiance laughter is too distracting.
So it’s thumbs down from Indiana.
One other kick about these comments… why all the lame names used by nearly every one??
@81 & 82
“People” like M “I’m going to die alone and afraid” Sipher is one of the best reasons to stay away from discussions and forums. Although I do find it amusing that he’s adopted the bombastic tone of the lovable, but deranged J.C. (from Sidehackers).
@77, 61, and whoever else mentioned Film Crew, Rifftrax versus the lack of interaction in the CT riffers. I will definitely say that despite my love of the studio DVDs, that the interaction between the Titans in the studio versions leaves something to be desired. I think they got better later, and the LIVE versions certainly seem to help that.
With Mike, Kevin, and Bill… they seem like they are having a good time and enjoy each others’ company. I think the writing is better on CT, but the Rifftrax and Film Crew really seem more like they are 3 friends hanging out and cracking wise on a bad movie. The CT crew seem like 5 people living in different places, who write on their own, bring their new written material in and then riff on the movie… oh wait… That’s exactly what they are. And it seems a bit cold at times, but the writing is solid. If they can just inject some spontaneity (or write it in), it will be perfect.
I’m going to enjoy this film with some grilled hamburger sandwiches and some french-fried potatoes.
#89: Whatever you have to tell yourself to sleep at night, I suppose.
#86: “I thought the lines were very funny on this new clip, but the delivery still often sounds wooden and lacks a certain hard-to-define something.”
Very much so. The writing wasn’t bad at all, but definitely had a flat delivery. Which is odd because we’ve heard every last one of these people riffing on MST, and every last one did it better then. Maybe because they were playing characters. Frank and Mary Jo in particular; their brief times in the theater were wonderful (is “not evil” Frank really all that much different from “evil” Frank anyway?), but here, it’s leaving me cold.
The “learning machine” freakout is probably the best example, quickly followed by “it’s gonna blow!”. The other performers were just… sitting there. Where was the panicking, the screams? The trying to talk Josh down, the ducking at the explosion warning?
Wow! What a wide variety of opinions and obsavations. I am just happy I get to see another DVD from CT. The fact they are doing one of my favorite crap films ever which I was the first to suggest this title on the CT website for them to riff on is just driving me crazy to get my greasy fingers on this latest effort.
I understand if you don’t like one set of performers over the other for what ever reason that’s your right but maybe you should focus more on why they {MST,RT, FC, CT} are doing what they do. That being ripping the $#!7 out the crappiest movies ever committed to film. Does it really matter if they use puppets, costumes, blue color uniforms or silhouettes? I personally will enjoy watching those movies and laughing my ass off in any of the formats.
I guess the thing I find odd re. “not liking hearing the audience” is that we Misties ARE the audience. During CT & RT shows, I have laughed out loud at things the people around me did not, and vice versa. I find it hard to accept that YOU appreciate all the jokes on a deeper level than I do. We each react in varying degrees to different things.
I don’t complain while listening to a George Carlin CD or watching a Louis C.K. concert special that there are audience members dictating to me what is funny or not. Maybe stand-up comedy is too different an animal to properly compare, but what CT are doing live is some kind of hybrid.
I dunno, this is still a new format so I’d suggest that people hang in there and see what happens. If sales of the live DVDs drop, maybe they’ll listen. All the MST vets seem pretty intent on pleasing their fans.
And to suggest an analogy: just because you loved the Beatles doesn’t mean you loved Wings, even if they played Beatle tunes during their concerts. Including watered-down versions of past glories could seem like more of an affront. Honestly, I can’t blame you if you don’t dig CT. None of their releases have the same replay value as classic MST.
And to #88: Way to call the kettle black. Your name’s pretty lame too :)
Hey — maybe that IS his name (mine is). Don’t jump to conclusions.
I thought it was really funny.
Please, fellow Misties, don’t surrender to the dark side.
Im glad that im not the only one who hates the live format, East meets watts was so bad, Im still on the fence about alien factor. I watched the preview and seems like they might fixed audio problem (ya know the problem where you cant hear the riffs over audience)
but the last one left such a bad after taste.
damn it! why cant you give us a choice “Mr. Idea Man” the collection will be incomplete without alien factor, but if I watch it only once do I need to own it?
ok I need a support group or customer service line, call it M.F.T.R.T.T.S.F. “Mysties For The Return To The Studieo Format”
(ok maybe not).
“what about you, Mr. Idea Man?” “well I think…” “Stop!, every time you think this company losses a fortune”
Is my five year old analog tv set so small & the audio put out in combo with my low end but still brand name DVD so poor that I’m not even noticing all these riffs being drowned out by the audience? There are maybe three spots where there’s an unclear word or two, but that was pretty par for the course that the movie soundtrack or mumbled delivery would drown out a line or two in actual episodes of mst. Or are there spots where higher end equipment will show mouths moving and really faint riffing under the laughter?
Yeah, I find the presence of the Riffers on the side WAY distracting– nearly as much as the audience laughter. I own all the studio releases, but am bailing on these live ones.
Hey, Finnias 93… I’m the real deal. Look me up on Google, especially the “Train Exchange” pics.
#94 “Hey — maybe that IS his name”
Yeah, I figured that. But 95% of internet forum users throughout the world create fictional user names*. Most are “lame” and mean nothing to anyone besides the user themselves.
Why would anyone use their “real-life” names? (Honest question)
#96 “…I need a support group…”
Well, the CT website has a forum, and I bet there are people there who feel the same as you. Start a thread (maybe there already is one): protesting there has a better chance of reaching the Titans themselves. Boycott Alien Factor!
#99 Very impressive, Mike. My late uncle was a train enthusiast so I have some appreciation for the craft and beauty of scale model building. Though the Mystie in me wants to see Gamera/Godzilla/Gorgo to start wrecking it all.
* I made up that statistic, but you know what I mean.