On the Cinematic Titanic blog, Joel has announced that the CT team is going to take “a much-needed break for the rest of the summer,” though they are working on a new title they’ve just acquired.
He also announced that the team has signed with talent agency APA, which is “the agency I worked with when I was a young stand-up: they helped me land my first bookings on SNL and Letterman as well as being the company that helped make that very important MST3K deal back at Comedy Channel. It’s great to be back working with them, and they will be representing Cinematic Titanic for theatrical gigs as well as bringing our live shows to various media too.”
Finally, he also revealed that “we’ve decided not to record our last three live features (‘East Meets Watts,’ ‘Danger on Tiki Island’ and ‘Alien Factor’) in the studio, as I previously announced. Instead, we will continue to present these features in future live dates.”
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I completely understand the need to have exclusive material to keep the live performances going, and I actually love the idea of them doing so much fine tuning on these three films for when they are eventually (hopefully) released on DVD, but I think a better route would be to rotate new films in as they record old ones for new DVD episodes. I don’t see the need to keep all three of these movies as performance only if it means totally abandoning DVD releases of any of them for the foreseeable future. Why not take the one of these three that is the most ready for a final release on DVD and record it. Get the DVD out there and pick a new film to replace it in the live shows? Get a cycle going of new films occasionally being rotated into the live show roster as old ones are graduated to new DVD releases. Yes I understand that there might be an issue with only recording one new DVD at a time (as in it is probably less expensive to rent out the studio and record a batch of new episodes rather than doing them individually), but that isn’t an insurmountable issue. If they have to they can figure out a new way of recording the show so that they can get it out on a more frequent basis.
I’m not in a position where it has been possible for me to actually be able to get to any of the any live shows they’ve done so far without an unacceptable amount of travel and expense beyond the already high ticket prices, so unless they drastically expand their touring to include a much larger selection of cities, this kind of news is only going to be seen as bad news for a lot of people such as myself. Live shows are a great idea, and I’m sure they are a lot of fun for those lucky enough to be able to catch them, but there are a lot more of us out there who can’t make it to them for one reason or another, and since the focus on live shows now seems to be keeping us from getting new CT DVDs for such extended periods of time then they’ve gone from being something I’m sad to have to miss to being something I’m kind of sad exists.
Apparently, the cost for doing the movies live is less…while the profit is higher compared to the studio time and making DVD’s.
Since one continues to move along, while the other staggers about waiting for some action.
Sad…but at least Cinematic Titanic made 7 DVD’s compared to the 4 Film Crew DVD’s.
Even if CT played live in my area…I couldn’t support the idea. When I watch a DVD of theirs, it takes me three viewings just to catch all the jokes that I missed from laughing so much on the first two viewings. If I was to pay for three tickets to view them live, I’m not even guaranteed that I could catch all the jokes, since I have other people laughing on top of mine.
Here’s hoping for another DVD in 2009…but I doubt it will happen. We only had one for this year correct? It seems like forever ago when it did come out.
Please don’t die on us CT with the DVD market.
This is all speculation, but what if they’re trying to get enough live movies stacked up that they can have different shows on the 2 nights in each town?
And if any Titans are reading this – remember how much you loved Portland? You want to come back, don’t you? Keep looking at the watch I’m holding…yes, you do want to come back, don’t you?
Why must CT squander any momentum they happen to build? One cannot run on the fumes of good will forever. That new agency can trumpet all it wants; without quality promotional material, namely new DVDs, people will not bite for $40 a head plus expenses. I’m also skeptical of the viability of a TV deal. That’s such an expensive undertaking. What shape would it possibly take? Certainly not a weekly/monthly/whateverly MST3K-style series. Just who would care? Not many people, I’d wager. I’m not convinced that is even what is being implied here. Real world circumstances are prohibitive with respect to any truly dedicated productions, be they live or studio. Maybe it’s better this way, less contrived, for CT to be a hobbyish supplementary for the Titans. Who knows? We’ll see. Any way you speculate, it’ll shake down the way it’ll shake.
I am glad that there has been some movement on at least letting the internet know where the DVDs were and since the answer is “No” we can at least ration the reasons as:
1. They (Titans) have large start up costs of this venture and since we can guess that they would like to make their money back they pumped out the most accessable product at the time, the DVDs to get a direct return on their initial investment then;
2. When they started to get the crowds for the shows and now this is their focus since they did say they wanted to reconnect with the fans even if most have to cross state lines to see them which means;
3. The 2009 CT Experience Live Box Set that will probely happen around the end of the year. Why a box set? Everyone around here seems to gush about SHOUT! and are willing to drop the cash to get the box so maybe a package is coming or maybe;
4. The redesign of the website and the hiring of agents might mean that CT could come to TV in some manner. After all, cable has only gotten bigger in the past few years and they can’t show CSI & Spiderman 2 on every channel especially if they would join a pay cable channel (cough, Showtime, cough) that the format might fit better.
Regardless I hope to see CT continue their master (ninja I & II) plan and wish them and all the fans all the best!
Peace
I’m wondering if it has something to do with the cost to rent the films for theatrical showing as opposed to paying for the dvd rights to these films.
When I helped put together film festivals in the past the cost of renting theatrical prints cost something in the area of between $150.00 to $600.00 per showing, depending on what studio was renting the prints to you.
On the other hand, the rights to a film for DVD could cost From $5000.00 to $30,000.00 for an average 7 year dvd rights span.
Also most theaters will book your show and either take a percentage of ticket sales and all concession sales or will “four-wall” the theater to you. That means that you pay to rent the entire theater for a flat fee and you keep all the ticket sales while the theater keeps all concessions.
You could “four-wall” a good theater that seats 500 and up for about $5000.00.
Smaller theaters are less.
If you sold tickets for a 500 seat theater for $20.00 and filled it you would come away with $10,000.00.
How many dvd’s would you have to sell to turn a profit after manufaturing and buying the rights, etcetera.
So it would probably be more cost effective for the Titans to just do live shows and get most of the “house” ticket sales after the theater rental and film rental costs as well as their travel expenses are factored in.
I could be wrong though.
Dave Chapple
I just noticed that tickets were $40.00 at the lakeshore theater. So figure that math in.
; )
Dave
I agree with the last few posts. Renting a studio to record the DVDs, hiring a crew and then post production costs as well as the rights to release the films on DVD are most likely very cost prohibitive when compared to the live show. Even if you figure in travel expenses for the Titans, it’s probably still easier to make a profit doing live shows than it is to make and sell the DVDs. However, I am EXTREMELY disappointed that I will not be seeing Tiki Island on DVD. They haven’t brought that show to LA yet and I am a big fan of the Blood Island films. John Ashley is so bad he’s good. Plus, it’s product that brings people to the shows. No one would go to see U2 live if they didn’t have their CDs at home, right?
Very disappointed. This is like a slap in the face for all who have supported CT. I would think that live shows would be more expensive, don’t forget to add in travel expenses as well as the theater rental. I would rather they increased the dvd price. Live shows are too far apart, if you are lucky they may come around near you once a year. Guess that time tube is going to be very empty.
Rifftrax seems to be the only hope. Hopefully they will contine to release SHORTS dvds. The live event on the 20th looks promising, but there again we are being fed a film we have all seen riffed twice, once by Mike and then by the three of them.
Maybe the indies like Josh Way and ICW can step up to the plate.
Hopefully they’ll take the downtime to write some decent jokes.
Yawl need to just relax! Some really need to get a life as well. They are all creative, intelligent and responsible folks have responsibilities outside the CT experience. They are not on this earth just for your entertainment so try to view them as responsible adults who sometimes have to reverse course because thats just how life works, especially in the world of entertainment. Try getting a job or reading a book meanwhile.
I wish they would do some shows in the los Angeles area. I live in Palm Springs but I would make the 2 hour drive to Los Angeles for the live show. I know a lot of my friends in LA would go as well.
The theater shows would be more profitable than the dvd’s for sure.
The theater rental could cost about $5000.00 on the high end but that is usually for one day or a weekend worth of shows.
So if you sell out three nights in a weekend you would have about $39,600.00 gross (based on the lakeshore numbers).
Minus the theater rental ($5000.00) the net proceeds would be $34,600.00 going to the Titans. Let’s say the film rental is $500.00 per showing for three showings ($1500.00).
Let’s estimate hotel and travel expenses ($3500.00)
And the leftover take home is $29,600.00 to be split by the Titans.
These numbers are just guesses of course. I have no idea of what they are paying for anything of course. This is just based on my own experiences.
Dave
MrRocco:
I think you are projecting.
; )
Dave
I know it’s a business and the real goal here is to make money, at least enough to live, but it seems to me it’s easier to sell a $20 DVD across the country at least, than attract a smaller, local crowd at twice the price.
Feels like we’re back where we started all those years ago. To maximize DVD profits, cheap movie rights come from small companies or even public domain flicks again. Personally, I could do with a little more variety in films, whenever another DVD comes around.
Why you would announce an agent and a vacation at the same time seems like an odd decision to me as well. I live life on the edge and take time off without ANY outside consultation.
This whole gravataar thing ended up being a little more complicated than I expected…
Dave- I was speaking to the 10% of the more hysterical posts. I have no qualms with well thought out & considerate views like your own. In fact, I enjoy them because I may learn something.
I may have projected the ‘creative, intelligent and responsible’ part, ;) back atcha! Peace out.
Re; Joel’s update, this is pretty much what I figured. We’ll just have to wait a bit for new DVDs. I’m OK with that; the Titans have certainly earned some consideration in that respect.
I’m glad Joel cleared up the confusion. Things were getting out of hand.
Oh, and I’d be really glad if CT did another show in the Northest. No hurry, though. I can wait.
Well, let’s see:
No more Film Crew.
Shout! will release only 3 MST3K sets per year.
I have dial-up, so Rifftrax is out, except for the few DVDs they release.
CT live shows are never near me, and their DVD schedule is uncertain.
Friends, I am bummed by all of this. Still, I have my MST3K DVDs, and I am in the process of obtaining all MST3K episodes on tape. I usuallly watch 6 or 7 episodes every day. I can’t get through the day without them.
I just ordered Santa Claus Conquers the Martians from CT. How was that? Anyone?
You watch 6 or 7 episodes every day? Wow, you must skip sleeping.
Well, I work at home, so I get my Bots and my sleep.
Sorry, but this just reinforces my impression of the CT crew as a bunch of cold, calculating business folk going thru the motions, while the Rifftrax guys are having a great time doing something they love. It’s the reason I buy every Rifftrax VOD and short, and many of the mp3 commentaries — they’re not only funny, they’re fun, and the guys sound like they’re having a great time, as opposed to Joel & crew, who always sound supremely bored with what they’re doing.
Well, the update comes as a relief, but it still doesn’t say if they will be recording East Meets Watt, Alien F. and and Island. I think we can assume they will and all relax.
I just want add that I’ve seen four live shows which includes all the above films and Vampires. Each show was superb and as much fun and laughs as any MST. Support the live shows, guys, they are fantastic.
But I do want to see those DVDs so I can relive the live shows and have those riffs forever.
Well, maybe live performance is where Joel and the rest’s hearts are. I’ve got all the DVDs and while some are very funny, there’s a certain enthusiasm that seems to be lacking.
Loran Alan Davis: “I have dial-up, so Rifftrax is out, except for the few DVDs they release.”
If you have trouble downloading stuff, there’s still plenty of goodies you can have shipped to your house. In addition to all the Rifftrax DVDs, there are also four MP3 discs you can buy. Each one has riffs for seven movies.
http://www.rifftrax.com/goodies/rifftrax-mp3-discs
Plus you could always check out the DVDs that have been released by Incognito Cinema Warriors and Josh Way.
My comment above about doing different movies the 2 nights in each city makes absolutely no sense, because of course they already do that.
Please ignore that comment.
My plea for them to return to Portland should not be ignored, though.
For anyone who has attended a performance, does CT sell out the theaters or are there some empty seats? Even if they fill every hall I’d guess that no one is piling up the gold from these (relatively few) shows, so the avarice angle is ringing wicked false to me. Conventions bring the dough, but I’m sure we could list tens of other expenses accrued from staging live performances. People forget TAXES!
I don’t know. I just don’t want the Titans to properly burn out. History has shown that when something becomes too much like pain it will be abandoned. I suspect the primary concern at this juncture is keeping the venture afloat with as little stress as possible. Until we ring in our techno-socialist utopia money is an important part of that. I trust them to know their own minds and hearts and assorted suchlike.
Honestly? For me, it’s always all about preserving the product for replay value.
There is no doubt. 10 out of 10 times, give me the DVD, not the live show. Same with music…give me the album, not the concert. For example, I’m a U2 fan. I’ll go to a U2 concert and love it. But, if U2 decided to only play The Joshua Tree live and take the album out of my album collection…I’d be pissed. Hell, I went to a MST3K convention during Season 6. That doesn’t mean I’d be cool if they didn’t air another episode that season just b/c I got to go to the convention.
And replay value is why my MST3K obsession (yes, I’ll admit that’s the proper term) has been sustained for so long. Literally, every night before I go to bed, I put on a MST3K episode….usually the same one for weeks at a time. My longest record ever was Master Ninja I and II. I’m not kidding. I believe I watched it every night for 6 months in a row or so. Hence, my frantic pleas to Shout Factory to release those episodes.
So, Joel…if you’re reading this: tangible product first…temporary live experience (however enjoyable), second.
Remember: “keep circulating the tapes” resonated.
From what has been said officially and in blogs, it sounds to me like we will be seeing these movies released on DVD but we will have to wait a little longer. As they add new movies to the live show, they’ll take the older movie and record it for a DVD. That way they wind up with a bunch of movies to choose from for the live show and still be able to release DVDs.
I think people are making assumptions.
Joel never said: “don’t worry…those 3 films will eventually be released on DVD.”
He said CT intends to continue making DVD’s.
That’s a far more general statement and in no way indicates (one way or the other) if we’ll see those 3 particular films released.
True, that is an assumption. Most would say it’s a pretty safe bet that they will release movies they have riffed on for months. Would be a waste to have all that material perfected and not use it. I would guess they just want to give these films a little more time on tour then will release them on dvd on by one as they cycle newer movies into the live show.
I am not sure if everyone who thinks there may be a televsion deal in the works realises one thing:
If they can’t even handle recording and releasing one DVD every six months, they wouldn’t be able to do a TV show. That would mean they’d actually have to be proactive in getting episodes out.
Sorry to be so cynical, but I wouldn’t be so cynical if the world didn’t suck so much.
David #56: Regarding the cost of rights procurement and DVD releases… there are literally thousands of cheesy movies in the public domain to choose from (“Boy in the Plastic Bubble” with John Travolta, anyone?). They are therefore not at all forced into a financial corner of low profit margin when it comes to releasing DVDs. True, they may have to pay for some of the classics that they may want to give the CT treatment, but they are in no way forced to lay out 10s of thousands of dollars just for riffable material.
Bot Snak #82:
I agree totally with you.
: )
Dave
Gummo #71:
Really? I get the exact opposite impression. The Rifftrax I have watched (and yes, I find them funny) seem cynical and somewhat “going through the motions”. The CT dvds and live performances feel more like a group of friends having fun watching – and making fun of – a movie. Have you been to a show? I ask because the DVDs definitely feel “stiff” compared to a live show. Of course, we only have the DVDs that were recorded BEFORE being performed live, so it just may be that the stiffness is a side-effect of the completely one-sided production process of those early discs, and the live shows could result in much smoother DVD performances.
NimblyRiven #76:
I know the Boston show I went to was sold out, and from the reviews and recaps of other shows I’ve heard about, they all seemed to be pretty well full. Having said that, I agree with your assessment that, most likely, most of the money ends up in the hands of people other than the performers. That, along with the atmospheric differences between the performances and the DVDs, leads me to think that the Titans do positively enjoy the live shows.
But that’s just my impression. I will accept the Titans’ decision, provided that they come to Portland (Maine, that is) Real Soon Now(tm).
The shows that I went to in Seattle and Portland were full, or nearly so.
:sad:
The announcement says to me that CT, like MST3K pre-Rhino videos and DVDs, etc., is more about creating interesting shows rather than setting up a situation that cranks out products to sell to fans. If you look at history, it’s a real Joel move. It’s interesting to read the outrage of fans who seem to be MSTK “collectors” in contrast to those of us who became fans when the show was ephemera and the idea of actually owning more than a few episodes was, well, ridiculous.
It’s more a matter that by exclusively making live shows, it means their audience gets reduced greatly. Seriously, there’s no way in hell several of us are ever going to make it to a live show. All us fans who could only ever enjoy the DVDs just got virtually screwed over.
It was nice of Joel to respond to the fans so quickly and not leave us hanging. However, I get the feeling that when DVDs do return, they will not be released at the rate we were all getting comfortable with. I am betting that we probably won’t be seeing another CT release until around Christmas. If true, they will have to vie for my dollars against the next Shout collection and the sure to be Rifftrax DVD at the same time.
It’s simple: you can’t rip and upload a live performance.
I share. Cinemageddon is my Heaven. But my uploads are, as a rule, rare stuff that is otherwise not easily available–never this week’s latest CD, DVD, or comic book releases. It’s a little something I picked up from the example of all the wonderful MST3K dealers (including DAP) who refused to “compete” with Rhino.
On the other hand, I’ve seen CT uploaders claim, complete with a phony quote, that Joel and the gang approve of their piracy.
Don’t blame Joel. Blame the dickweed who torrents every CT disc before he’s even watched it.
:cry:
At 40 bucks a ticket, even if they only ended up pocketing HALF of that, it would still be a good two hundred and forty grand right there. I don’t know how many shows it took them to reach 12 thousand people, but that would be almost 50,000 bucks for each of the 5 members. Not bad for a year of sporadic shows without the grind of touring.
@The Unabeefer #81
You have to take into account that they have been producing these DVDs on their own, and, at least in the beginning, with a real risk that they wouldn’t make enough money back from the DVDs to cover their own investments in the project. A TV deal would eliminate those as issues, and they would definitely be able to make more episodes, more often. The biggest issues then would be whether all the Titans would be willing to drop everything else they have going on and focus on a CT TV show, and Mary Jo and Trace possibly even move to LA so they could all be together more often. I don’t think that is going to happen, and I don’t see CT coming to TV anytime soon. I don’t even see that as a real goal for them either. In this day and age TV is a crappy outlet for something like CT. I could only really see it as an infrequent thing on a more fringe movie focused channel like Sundance or IFC. Maybe once a month they could show a CT special, but only after that movie has been both performed live, and available on DVD for a while (I mean if IFC can show something like Food Party, which is AWESOME, they could show CT once in a while). Once they have a lot more episodes under their belt something like that might be a way for them to get a little extra money out of older episodes that have likely already sold a majority of the DVDs and live show tickets that they ever will. But as for first run TV episodes of CT like MST3K did, well I don’t see it ever happening.
#71 Gummo –
Couldn’t agree more with what you said. I’ve tried to give CT a chance, but feel as if they’re going through the motions. It’s as if they decided “well, all our other projects are stagnating, let’s go back to this.” That’s not to say that RiffTrax has hit a home run each time, but they do have a greater love for the medium.
My gut says this is going to work out fine. They want to go out and “play” their new movies a whole lot before releasing them on DVD, because once we can see them from home, it’s not going to be the same experience “in concert” is it? So, they’ll go all over the place with these 3 flicks, and then release them as they get other new movies into their repertoire. And they get all the riffs into tiptop shape before committing them to disc.
The Marx Brothers used to do their upcoming movie as a stage show, and tour around with it, until they got the laughs worked out. Same thing here.
I agree with the above mentioned posts that this is not a excuse to panic (“Don’t Panic” LA area shout-out) but means at least the tour will continue and some new CT product later.
Now we just need some venues in areas where they have not yet toured to contact CT with some sweetheart deals so the roadshow continues…
There seems to be a sub-thread emerging about whether CT or Rifftrax sound like the are just ‘going through the motions’
There Seems to be a roughly even number of people that get that feeling from both groups, and then a agreement that CT Live has a heartful ‘into it’& energetic feel.
I see both sides (but haven’t seen CT live)
I’m a fan & supporter of both MST3K offspring projects.
I have noticed that the delivery of lines in CT DVDs seems a bit stiff or uninspired at times, even though the material is pretty funny.
Maybe the live tour will get their riffing chops back in shape, picking up on how to deliver the lines in a way that gets the best reaction, then being intimately familiar with the movies and crowd reactions they will cut better DVD tracks. (i hope)
Strangely, in my opinion they DVDs haven’t improved with each release. Their first 3 are funniest to me and the rest are just o.k.
On the other hand, Rifftrax are awesome, but also very hit-and-miss. Some of them are incredibly funny and right in the groove, others sound like the had a difficult time writing the riffs and deliver them without much gusto.
Their more recent return to BAD movies “Planet of the Dinosaurs” was a awesome and really seemed to have the feel of a sci-fi era MST3K episode.
Damn .. ton of typos above from editing parts of sentences and not re-reading them in full. I seriously need to use the “preview” function :roll:
Hard to say as to what CT will do in the future. I don’t see those last three being released on DVDs anytime soon.
One, once on DVD, how can they charge $40- on up to do a live version of the same movie?
Two, the studio work must be such a drag that the final product of the DVD sounds like they all were doing it at gunpoint (and frankly, MJ and Frank don’t do studio that well however they thrive for the live shows).
Three, hiring an agency means Joel has bigger things in mind (for better or worse).
I don’t see CT releasing any studio versions but continue on doing the live shows.
@badger – Are most touring comedians and rock bands are totally unable to sneak old material past live audiences? Do The Stones get two notes into Brown Sugar and find themselves drowned out by cries of “play something off the upcoming album!”?