This half-hour “proof of concept” video, a very rough pilot created by Joel, Trace and Josh, with Jim (and presumably Kevin) behind the camera. The video shown below is most likely an edited version which focuses on the host segments and removes most of the theater sequences.
Segment 1: Joel tries to make contact with anyone, then introduces the movie.
Segment 2: Joel is joined by Crow and Beeper; he demonstrates the Chiro-Gyro.
Segment 3: Joel introduces Gypsy and reveals that he has taught the bots to laugh at his jokes.
Segment 4: Joel discovers that his vacu-flowers are sick, and the illness spreads to Gypsy.
Segment 5: As Joel works on Gypsy, he discovers that the illness has spread to Beeper and…himself!
Segment 6: Everybody has recovered from the foam sickness, but Crow has a parting shot.
Some observations:
• The purpose of this video was to convince KTMA’s station manager, a guy named Don O’Connor, that this idea of Joel’s was going to work. I gotta say, as interesting as this is to look at more than a quarter of a century later, I am AMAZED that it accomplished that purpose. Maybe ol’ Don had an eye for talent (though from the stories I’ve heard, that doesn’t sound likely) or maybe Jim just talked him into it.
• You can definitely see Joel’s “Silent Running meets Omega Man” concept at work, but as he says, it’s a little dour.
• The primitive door sequence always gets a laugh from fans the first time they see it.
• It’s interesting that the pilot doesn’t really show Joel riffing. That doesn’t really seem to have been a big part of the concept at this point. It seems like Joel is just sort of watching along with us. It’s much more like a standard “Svengoolie” style movie show in that sense.
• Note somebody fumbling around behind the theater seats as Joel leaves the first time. Not sure what’s going on there. (Some commenters say that’s audience members at the screening.
• The second segment is one you’ve seen if you’ve seen “The MST3K Scrapbook” video tape.
• The “chiropractic helmet,” later known as the “Chiro-Gyro,” would make a return appearance in episode 105- THE CORPSE VANISHES.
• Gypsy is male in this.
• Joel also says there are “25 other robots doing various complicated operations around the ship.” That’s very “Silent Running.”
• I notice that the ubiquitous background nooise — that non-stop engine hum and occasional “plink!” is present even in this. Where did they get it from?
• For the record, Joel comes into the theater by himself the first time, Crow joins him the second time, the third time it’s Joel, Crow and Beeper (who seems to be sitting on Joel’s lap), then Joel, Crow and Gypsy the next time and finally Joel by himself again.
• Joel mentions the “spiral-on-down” which he would mention once or twice more in the regular series.
• Fave riff: “…Speaking of the number 2 position…” At the screening, Joel declares it “The Birth of Movie Riffing!”
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Mop top Joel! Pales in comparison of what it developed into but endearing and courageous all the same. Shows what a lot of hard work and dedication, despite limited resources, can accomplished. I think of the KTMA era as the Garage Band phase.
“Note somebody fumbling around behind the theater seats as Joel leaves the first time. Not sure what’s going on there.”
I think that was somebody at the convention, unless there’s something else you’re seeing (kinda dark)…
When they showed up again later in Season One I thought Joel’s ‘vacuum flowers’ were a reference to a sci-fi novel of the same name: Michael Swanwick’s Vacuum Flowers (1987). I never read it but saw it on a list of recommended ‘cyberpunk’ novels around the time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_Flowers
The nucleation point that would become a “cult”-ural icon….thanks Joel & Best Brains & DAP. Twenty plus years latter we are buying DVD box sets, merch, and passionately discussing online. Wow.
Is it me, or does it look like Crow’s trying to “put a move” on Joel in the theater near the end of the first YouTube clip?
Also, I kind of liked Beeper’s head mobility.
#5, I was thinking the same thing! Crow’s trying to cop a feel!
>>>Joel also says there are “25 other robots doing various complicated operations around the ship.”
“I’m responsible for the lives of 148 crew members on this ship, 144 of which we never see!”
25 robots? Maybe Joel was referring to the Nanites and he meant 25 trillion.
Wow. I am awestruck at the difference between this and the MST3K that we all know and love.
Here’s something I think should go into that observations lsit: Notice how when Crow, Beep, and Joel enter the theater, it looks like they have what I’m assuming would be pocorn in the theater?
Also, after seeing one of the host segments for Invaders from the Deep on Mst3k.com, I’m guessing that episode is kind of like a repeated version of this episode. :razz:
Here’s something I’ve also been wondering for a while: If anyone has seen the portion of segment 3 at that 1994 convention, you’ll notice how Crow says “If you found the secret of life, why *did* it bum you out?”, while on the video here, he says “If you found the secret of life, why *should* it bum you out?”. Also, if anyone has the 20th Anniversary DVD and watched the first part of The History of Mst3k, when it shows a clip from the 1st segment, you’ll notice Joel says “Is there *anybody* out there?”, while here, he says “Is there *anyone* out there?”. It’s making me wonder if there were possibly 2 different versions of the pilot made, and the other version from this one actually features the title screen and that little riff we hear from Joel where he says “That’s no asteroid, that’s a battle station!”, both of which can only be viewed on the MST Scrapbook tape… for now. Those could just be deleted scenes, I admit, but I guess we’ll never really know for sure till Shout! can convince Joel and Jim to release ‘dem dry KTMA episodes. :roll:
I still think there was actually more riffing of the movie done for the pilot, but it is cut from this version. After all we have seen the little clip of Joel saying “That’s no asteroid. It’s a battle station” and also doing his “dance” over the opening title. Someone suggested that maybe they went back and filmed just those clips later so they could use them in their original KTMA promo, but to me it would make more sense if they had filmed Joel riffing the first eight or nine minutes of the movie.
I love the primitive door sequence.
Looks like Alex and I were typing at the same time. I do like the way they tried different combinations of riffers in the theater. Probably just trying to see what looked best. One other thing, this is the only time Joel is “Joel Hodgson” in the show instead of “Joel Robinson.”
The Green Slime would have been the third movie I’ve seen prior to it being riffed on MST3K if only they had actually done it.
I can see this demo tape selling to a local station. They’ve always been known to play b-movies. Having a host guide you through it, even if he doesn’t do that many jokes, would seem like a natural fit.
My only other comments is that Joel looks like a hippie. Which is a good thing that I would have liked to see continue on the cable series other than just his goatee. Also Josh is pretty hyper here. Had I been a station manager at KTMA I would have bought the show as well.
I don’t really know how to quote comments on this site but…
“mst3ktemple says:
July 17, 2010 at 10:57 am
I still think there was actually more riffing of the movie done for the pilot, but it is cut from this version. After all we have seen the little clip of Joel saying “That’s no asteroid. It’s a battle station” and also doing his “dance” over the opening title. Someone suggested that maybe they went back and filmed just those clips later so they could use them in their original KTMA promo, but to me it would make more sense if they had filmed Joel riffing the first eight or nine minutes of the movie.”
Well, I do have one possobillity of finding out: Shout! Factory apparently *was* trying to include this episode on the 20th Anniversary DVD, but it was turned down by Joel and Jim because of their little “rule” of not allowing those episodes to be packaged onto any volume set. But luckily, they were still able to show clips from the episode on The History of Mst3k, and at least one clip is different from this version. I suppose if you have an account on Shout!’s official website, you could ask Brian Ward if the version shown on The History of Mst3k includes the title screen and Joel’s riff about the asteroid. Just a possobillity. ;-)
I agree with the Title missing and “That’s a battle station” comment being cut, I have the Scrapbook too. And I believe Joel used his real name throughout the entire KTMA season. It wasn’t until the national Season One that everything changed. So when will Jim put up more stuff on the website. I’d like to see more KTMA “missing bits” and “15 minutes with Bob Bagadonuts”. Because you can’t go wrong with a gravy or a sauce or a gravy.
Honestly, I wouldn’t guaruntee seeing more KTMA clips from those 3 “lost episodes” on the site. Jim hasn’t updated it in months, and the only recent update in the Genises section is just a duplicate clip of the “tanked” joke from K02.
So, with that being said, what’s already yp on there may sadly be all we might ever see, till Best Brains are convinced to releasing those episodes.
I have honestly kinda wondered about the whole KTMA issues: Are Joel and Jim not comfortable with releasing those episodes because they weren’t scripted or because they never exactly got the rights to use those movies (what were you guys thinking back then?!), so they don’t wanna get sued for releasing an episode with a film they never got permission to use… or is it pretty much both, for that matter?
“they never exactly got the rights to use those movies (what were you guys thinking back then?!”
Well, they were just getting started, and KTMA probably had crappy lawyers. My understanding is, KTMA assumed if they had the rights to the movie, they could willfully just let it be shown on MST3K, when in reality it’s not that simple. Joel and Jim probably just assumed KTMA was doing all the paperwork down to the bone, when really they didn’t.
As for another reason why we’ll never see the KTMA episodes, a couple years ago I spoke with someone at WUCW (the current incarnation of KTMA), and he told me that WUCW owns the copyrights to the early MST3K episodes, not Best Brains. Joel and Jim are probably aware of this, in the ACEG it’s written in the intro they don’t own those episodes.
So, to release the KTMA episodes, Shout Factory’s gonna have to pay money not just to the film’s rights holders, but the people at WUCW as well.
mst3ktemple is correct. What Joel showed is not complete; he apparently cut out the movie riffing segments. I’ve seen the clips that he mentioned and other stills (on the defunct “MST3K Picture Archive”) of them riffing movie segments that are missing in this showing.
What you see is a work in progress,which they got better with each season.Pretty impressive,considering with what they had to work with.
“Brandon says:
July 17, 2010 at 12:04 pm
“they never exactly got the rights to use those movies (what were you guys thinking back then?!”
Well, they were just getting started, and KTMA probably had crappy lawyers. My understanding is, KTMA assumed if they had the rights to the movie, they could willfully just let it be shown on MST3K, when in reality it’s not that simple. Joel and Jim probably just assumed KTMA was doing all the paperwork down to the bone, when really they didn’t.
As for another reason why we’ll never see the KTMA episodes, a couple years ago I spoke with someone at WUCW (the current incarnation of KTMA), and he told me that WUCW owns the copyrights to the early MST3K episodes, not Best Brains. Joel and Jim are probably aware of this, in the ACEG it’s written in the intro they don’t own those episodes.
So, to release the KTMA episodes, Shout Factory’s gonna have to pay money not just to the film’s rights holders, but the people at WUCW as well.”
Yeah, I guess you have a point there. It makes me wonder how much money they had to pay when they apparently were busted for using these films without permission.
And really? Gee, I never knew that. When was this? If this was a long time ago, that could’ve possibly changed now, so for all we know, Best Brains now owns the rights to the KTMA’s. If they don’t own the rights to those films, then I wonder why there’s a vault at Best Brains with those tapes in the first place… :|
If they don’t own the rights to those episodes, I mean. My oopsy. :P
I thought this was a good introduction to the characters. Not necessarily the characters as we know them, but still an interesting look at the creative process. Sure they didn’t do too much with the movie (or we didn’t see that part) but the KTMA days weren’t meant to be about riffing and such.
“If they don’t own the rights to those films, then I wonder why there’s a vault at Best Brains with those tapes in the first place…”
Would you throw them away just because you didn’t own the distribution rights?
I rest my case.
“If they don’t own the rights to those films, then I wonder why there’s a vault at Best Brains with those tapes in the first place…”
Would you throw them away just because you didn’t own the distribution rights?
I rest my case.”
Hmm… good point. But I meant like if the master tapes were in a locked-away vaulat at WUCW instead of Best Brains, is all. ;-)
Yes, it’s very rough around the edges, but you can definitely see the germ of the show that it would become.
Alex, I don’t recall exactly when it was I contacted WUCW. “A couple years ago” is an approximation, it could have been longer than that. I was mostly asking if they had copies of the first three KTMA episodes. The man who responded to me, I forgot his name, but said that he’s one of only a few people from KTMA that still work at WUCW (I think his first name was Tom). He told me that he’s good friends with Joel and Jim, and explained that when KTMA shut down, they took the masters to those early episodes with them, and WUCW doesn’t have any copies in storage. He also said that WUCW owns the copyrights to those episodes (which really wasn’t something I asked about, but it was good to get that information nonetheless).
Also, I don’t know if KTMA ever got “busted” for using the films without permission, but they did go bankrupt shortly after MST3K ended its run there. However, I think it’s bankruptcy was caused by other things.
This actually isn’t that bad. True, not having JaTB do much of anything in the theater misses what became the point of the show, but the sense of humor outside the theater is the same charming skits & inventions that held steady throughout the first couple seasons.
I’m looking forward to watching the KTMA versions of the Sandy Frank movies for the first time in coming weeks.
#27: Good work. And I agree, I’ve never heard of KTMA getting busted for using the films (it would probably be a waste of money to litigate against such a small station). They went bankrupt after leading an attempt to create a regional network of independent stations that proved financially disastrous.
“Brandon says:
July 17, 2010 at 1:07 pm
Alex, I don’t recall exactly when it was I contacted WUCW. “A couple years ago” is an approximation, it could have been longer than that. I was mostly asking if they had copies of the first three KTMA episodes. The man who responded to me, I forgot his name, but said that he’s one of only a few people from KTMA that still work at WUCW (I think his first name was Tom). He told me that he’s good friends with Joel and Jim, and explained that when KTMA shut down, they took the masters to those early episodes with them, and WUCW doesn’t have any copies in storage. He also said that WUCW owns the copyrights to those episodes (which really wasn’t something I asked about, but it was good to get that information nonetheless).
Also, I don’t know if KTMA ever got “busted” for using the films without permission, but they did go bankrupt shortly after MST3K ended its run there. However, I think it’s bankruptcy was caused by other things.”
Ah, I see. Well… if Joel and Jim come out of their shell and let those episodes be released, I ceartainly hope WUCW won’t want an expensive amount of money just to release those episodes like Sandy Frank wanted when BB and CC tried to renew the rights to his movies (before he lost the rights, of course).
Speaking of which, the Sandy Frank films *were* later secured when used in Season 3, so at least those ones could be released when it comes to KTMA. I know the Gamera episodes are right now off-limits (cause the Japanese license holder doesn’t want their precious turtle being mocked :roll:, and yes, I do kind of think those Gamera films are pretty stupid honestly), but as for Fugetive Alien, Mighty Jack and Time of the Apes… no confirmation on those yet, but keep them fingers crossed and see what happens. :mrgreen:
Mock turtle! Ha!
Okay, after doing some research through the archives at the MST3K Discussion Board (and it took awhile. I love that forum, but they have the worst search engine ever), I was able to turn up the pasted e-mail and response I had with the guy from WUCW. This was done in March 2007.
My e-mail:
“Hello. Are you firmiliar with the comedy series Mystery Science Theater 3000? Back in November 1988, the series premiered on this station, back then, when it was called KTMA TV23. Many “MSTies” have long been trying to obtain copies of the first 3 episodes Invaders From the Deep, Revenge of the Mesterons From Mars, and Star Force. We are asking you guys, if it’s possible you still have copies of these lost MST3K episodes, perhaps in storage. Please take the time out to look for these episodes. Many MST3K fans would gladly appreciate this. Thank You.
Brandon”
The response:
“Brandon,
I work at channel 23 in St. Paul, and worked with Joel and the gang from
MST when it was here. Unfortunately, KTMA went bankrupt many years
ago and let a lot of people go. The MST group left and took all of the
shows with them, and we do not have any copies.
Good luck on your search. If you find them let me know, I think we still
own the copyrights.
—
Tom Lynch
Asst. Promotion Director
WUCW
The CW Twin Cities”
The e-mail included a phone number, but I edited that out when I posted this on the forum.
“Brandon says:
July 17, 2010 at 1:51 pm
Okay, after doing some research through the archives at the MST3K Discussion Board (and it took awhile. I love that forum, but they have the worst search engine ever), I was able to turn up the pasted e-mail and response I had with the guy from WUCW. This was done in March 2007.
My e-mail:
“Hello. Are you firmiliar with the comedy series Mystery Science Theater 3000? Back in November 1988, the series premiered on this station, back then, when it was called KTMA TV23. Many “MSTies” have long been trying to obtain copies of the first 3 episodes Invaders From the Deep, Revenge of the Mesterons From Mars, and Star Force. We are asking you guys, if it’s possible you still have copies of these lost MST3K episodes, perhaps in storage. Please take the time out to look for these episodes. Many MST3K fans would gladly appreciate this. Thank You.
Brandon”
The response:
“Brandon,
I work at channel 23 in St. Paul, and worked with Joel and the gang from
MST when it was here. Unfortunately, KTMA went bankrupt many years
ago and let a lot of people go. The MST group left and took all of the
shows with them, and we do not have any copies.
Good luck on your search. If you find them let me know, I think we still
own the copyrights.
–
Tom Lynch
Asst. Promotion Director
WUCW
The CW Twin Cities”
The e-mail included a phone number, but I edited that out when I posted this on the forum.”
Interesting. What thread was that on, may I ask?
You can see in this episode what this series would eventually become but still, it took a good deal of faith to buy into that concept Joel was pitching at the time. This is interesting to watch from a historical standpoint but it’s also like seeing a rough, first draft. The promise is there but it really needed work.
This was interesting to watch when I discovered it. I always wished that they riffed all of The Green Slime, it’s a funny movie and it’s one of my favorite b-movies. As for the pilot, it is alright for something they made with no money to present to a little UHF station
I have to admit that some mixture of “how will I react to the KTMA episodes?” and “if I can’t start with ‘K01,’ maybe I’ll just skip that inaugural season altogether” has kept me from watching the KTMA episodes that are available… but when the pilot (host segments) showed up online, I watched it (them), and found the experience interesting. I do wonder whether it was rights issues or just wanting to emphasise the “host segments” rather than however much riffing there was at the beginning that shaped what has turned up, but what we can see is interesting enough; I’m able to think of it as an evolutionary step between “creature feature host” and Mystery Science Theater as we know it.
I still think there was actually more riffing of the movie done for the pilot, but it is cut from this version.
Could that have been cut due to the rights issues being discussed?
Alex,
http://forrestcrow.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=mstchat&thread=6912&page=1
could someone elaborate a little on these rights issues? Outside of KTMA owning the episodes that aired, there really shouldn’t be any difference between releasing those from releasing anything else. My understanding is that if a channel has the rights to a movie, they can show it. I’d always assumed, from what I’ve read, that those early episodes used movies that KTMA did have the rights to.
Am I missing something?
“jim says:
July 17, 2010 at 7:32 pm
could someone elaborate a little on these rights issues? Outside of KTMA owning the episodes that aired, there really shouldn’t be any difference between releasing those from releasing anything else. My understanding is that if a channel has the rights to a movie, they can show it. I’d always assumed, from what I’ve read, that those early episodes used movies that KTMA did have the rights to.
Am I missing something?”
I remember hearing on The History of Mst3k that there was apparently a library at KTMA TV 23 that contained all those films. While the studio may have bought vhs copies of the films, they may have just decided to give them to the crew who possibly assumed they would get permission instead (apparently, neither got permission at all).
That’s just my understanding. I guess we’ll never really know for sure. But, if Best Brains possibly re-riffs all the films for either Cinimatic Titanic or Rifftrax… there could be a possiblity for a fix.
P.S. thanks for the link, Brandon. :)
Aside from the Sandy Frank films used in S3, that is. ;-)
And by the way, about the whole rights issues some people are wondering about on this article: I guess there could be some rights issues with this film so they had to edit out some scenes (and do keep in mind, this is an MGM movie, which is one big company).
But also keep in mind: When this was being shown, Joel apparently just recently discovered he had a copy of it. So I don’t think he edited out any scenes, and plus, also keep in mind that this version is slightly different when you compare it to one of the clips from this episode shown on The History of Mst3k and a portion of segment three from a 1994 convention. I’d show you guys a clip, but I can’t find the clip on YT or Google anymore, and Tom Noel doesn’t have it on his website anymore. :|
I wonder if the “25 other robots” was either part of the original idea, or just a way to give themselves flexibility in later changing/adapting robot characters. In the History of MST3K short i think Joel says that around that time he was making lots of robots to sell in the Minneapolis area (!). So he probably thought he could make as many more as he wanted. Part of the changing concept was the focus on the three main characters.
I think the spark of brilliance and hilarity is evident even in the very raw material there. Fortunately, the “right people” saw that too and we have ten years of wonderful network shows as a result.
Pretty neat to see the genesis of the concept. It’s really, really raw, but there’s a certain homegrown amusement to be had, and back in those days if you had something with a little spark and a station that desperately needed to fill airtime, you had a shot.
You know, if you just took the first 10 seconds or so, you’d think Joel was stuck on the Event Horizon. It’s a little creepy.
The problem with the rights, as I understand it, is this: what you get when you create something based on copyrighted material is what’s called a “derivative work.” That is, unless you can successfully argue that use of the copyrighted material falls under the rubric of “fair use.” There are four tests which courts apply in determining whether use of copyrighted material falls into the category of “fair use.” And if nothing else, the KTMA episodes pretty clearly fail the “amount and substantiality” test by using all or most of a movie. The owners of the movies could have sued KTMA for infringing their copyright by creating unauthorized derivative works, irrespective of whether KTMA had licensed the basic right to show the movies. The original copyright holders don’t actually own unauthorized derivative works based on their material, but since they own the copyright of the underlying material, they ultimately have a veto over the public distribution of such works. The host segments, naturally, are a different story. (It’s also a different story when they use brief clips, as in the Scrapbook tape.)
I’m not sure if this is necessarily a roadblock to a formal release someday. It seems to me that the successors of KTMA and “Hair Brain Productions” could license the derivative use of the movies for a DVD release just as easily as, say, Cinema Titan can license movies for new derivative works. That is, if the copyright holders were amenable. But there may well be something about this that I don’t understand.
This comes mostly through reading on Wikipedia and fanfic copyright FAQs. I’m not a lawyer, don’t play one on TV, etc.
I did an iRiff for the Green Slime, attempting to retroactively to give it a proper riffing, a short time after these segments were shown. Didn’t sell well, since Green Slime is still not officially on DVD (that or it wasn’t funny enough, which could be the case since it got outsold by some dope putting his Youtube Poops up as iRiffs).
Don’t feel bad. iRiffs as a brand just doesn’t work.
I think the KTMAs won’t be released onto video due to, simply, the fact that the material is raw and unfinished as a concept. It would be like a writer releasing their earliest, least-polished works, where their style of writing hasn’t been developed fully or matured. If I could remember where I read such a thing, it would prove my point better but I think it was Kevin who said they would rather not have people see the KTMA episodes because of the rawness of the shows and the incomplete workings of the concept. It took the actual scripted nature of the show to make it a more viable concept.
How many of us in our 30s and beyond want anyone to see our elementary and high school pictures? :-)
I would argue that several KTMA episodes are better than Season 1 episodes…. and there’s a ton of Season 1 episodes on DVD.