Looks like someone’s a little bitter:
They’d later go on to have a second life on Mystery Science Theater 3000. Are you familiar with that show?
Yeah, right. I’ve caught some of those.You have?
Yeah. With the idiots sitting in the front row and commenting on what they see on the screen.You weren’t too pleased with those?
No, I wasn’t too pleased with those.
So, is he justified in his displeasure or should he lighten up? And whether or not he’s justified, do you think any other actor (or director or whatever) would be justified in not being too pleased with MST3K?
Me, I always thought they were a little mean to Kathy Ireland…
) to help our users cope with "trolls" and other commenters whom they find annoying. Go to our
Peter Graves: Grumpy Old Man. Tonight on BIOGRAPHY.
Obviously Joe Don Baker. They’ve let him have it pretty hard, and if he had been a good spirit about it, the end credits of Final Justice would probably be enough to change his mind.
I really have enjoyed Peter Graves’ work since I was a little kid and watched Mission Impossible on TV every week and it’s his right to feel a bit hurt by having his work blasted on MST3K. It would have been fun to hear he enjoyed the lampooning a bit, but I guess it’s not for everyone. Sorry to hear he didn’t like it at all.
I know I’m really glad that It Conquered The World made it onto MST3K regardless of how Mr. Graves feels about it, it’s a great episode. The combination of name actors, Peter Graves, Lee Van Cleef, Beverly Garland, with low budget SF made for terrific fun.
As for Killers From Space, in some ways it’s my favorite of the four Film Crew DVDs. Those old black-and-white super cheap SF films are still my favorite material for the MST3K-type treatment.
It’s a good think he’s probably never heard about what they did to him on The Film Crew.
In the comments on this week’s episode guide enty (TISCWSLABMUZ), several people made reference to the fact that Ray Dennis Steckler was a bit miffed, not so much at the jabs at himself, but at those directed toward his ex-wife, Carolyn Brandt. From all that I’ve heard about Mr. Steckler, this chivalrous attitude seems very much in character.
I have always thought that the premise of MST3K is a terrible idea for a show, and that the only reason that it turned out any good is because of the talent, enthusiasm, and fundamental decency of the Brains behind it. They usually showed restraint in keeping their jabs light. But I guess if you’re throwing lots and lots of rocks, some of them are bound to hurt a bit.
Good call. As a bunch of Mystery Science Theater 3000 fans if someone is justified in a complaint about Mystery Science Theater 3000.
Gene Siskel once said on his show that he knew a producer who always applauded after every movie he saw, because he knew how much effort it took to make a film…
As I get older, I’m leaning more towards that feeling and away from Mst3K.
On the other hand, Lighten up Mr. Graves! Laugh with us, as we laugh at you.
They never gave Peter Graves the “Mitchell” treatment…so what the heck is his problem? They went fairly easy on him. And since imitation is the highest form of flattery, he should feel complemented by Crow’s Peter Graves impressions.
I can understand director Rick Sloan’s resentment towards the crew. As far as I can remember he is the only director they made a cardboard cut out of and hurled insults at. Don’t get me wrong, I thought it was hilarious! I’m just saying I can understand his resentment.
I can certainly understand the anger directed as MST3K. Who wants to be made fun of? Publicly to boot. That said I like it when its happening to others and not to me, on MST3K anyway. Hypocritical? Absolutely.
There were times on MST3K that I didn’t particularly care for the fun poking. And that is when its happening to actors who recently passed away when the riffs occurred. This happened most obviously to me with the Master Ninja episodes as Mr. Cleef had died not too long before they were produced. Although I do still find the Master Ninja eps hilarious. It must be that hypocrisy thing in me still going strong.
I think MST lives in a world that can divid creative people. Essentially, do you create art for everyone to enjoy or do you create for people to judge on their own? As an actor who has done some very bad theater, I can say that you create art, and then let others judge them. Whether it’s good or bad, it’s just the way it is.
Also, I think anything that would take their little, historically crappy film and bring it to a whole new audience would be more than welcoming, regardless of how it’s treated.
So, did he have any idea who he was working with way back when he did Darkstar or what? Granted, he probably did all of his stuff alone in a sound booth, but I would think he would have been at least aware of who else was working on the project.
In Mitchell the jabs directed at the character himself are warranted. Mitchell is a slobbish, unlikable character. But in Final Justice Joe Don’s character is a pretty good guy, though he does threaten a woman with a coat hanger and drag her into his plan, ultimately causing her death. Oh, what the hell. I was gonna say all the food and fat jokes were too much. But go ahead. Jab away.
As for Peter Graves, his performance in The Beginning of the End was wooden and empty. But the script said he had to get the girl in the end, so he did. Though he certainly didn’t earn it.
The only time I felt uncomfortable in regards to jokes at particular actors/actresses is when the performer in question had recently died. I know the aim is comedy, but there’s also something called tact, and on occasion the Brains crossed that line.
That said, let’s remember that MST3K was always symbolic of mocking those who produced mediocrity (or even less, in some cases). Filmakers can use excuses like low budgets, limited resources etc. all they want; if you want to achieve greatness but don’t have the components to reach it, you open yourself up to mockery for lesser results.
I’ve always had nearly zero sympathy for celebs that get upset with their celebrity. They knew full well when they went into “acting” that if they were successful that they would be in the public eye. Everyone in the public eye gets both praise and criticism. As an actor, they are probably better equipped to deal with that situation than any of us, otherwise don’t be an actor.
I have full confidence that the Brains knew and appreciated the hard work and effort that goes into making a low budget production that’s done because they love to do it.
Maybe if a few more of today’s actors were to get some more practice doing crappy movies we’d have fewer stinkbergers being cranked out because a pretty face thinks they can act and Hollywood knows they can make a quick hundred-million off them.
Well, it kind of depends. From the MST point of view, as long as they don’t get too harsh or personal in the jokes, I figure you just let them slide. Hey, spoofing movies was around long before MST appeared, and I don’t recall actors getting upset at, say, Carol Burnett or Jack Benny when their work was joked about.
And, from the filmmakers’ or actors’ side, it depends on how much of themselves they invested in the production. If they thought it was a work worthy of a Nobel Prize, I can understand the bad feelings. If it was just a job and merely one small part of a much better resume, they should let it slide. Otherwise, they end up looking like Vincent Price in “Theater of Blood”.
I figure it just plain varies from person to person. Yeah, they did unload pretty heavily on Kathy Ireland. On the other hand, Coleman Francis was all but asking for harsh treatment. In both cases, let it go; it’s just a show, not Divine judgement.
One other note: If an actor can get really upset with MST, where it’s done in fun, I’d hate to think how they’d react to the sort of harsh treatment they can get from serious critics (Frank Rich being a prime example).
I enjoy the effort, sacrifice, courage, imagination and contribution that anyone makes in area of the arts no matter the medium. I will take in a live show over a recorded show and applaud every time out of respect for the artists involved in the production no matter how bad it is.
That said, I also think that anyone who puts anything out on the public table for inspection and review runs the risk of someone not liking what they did. They also run the risk of the public seeing something else then what they meant to express, be it positive or negative. This is a fact of life we all experience in one way or another.
Sampo cites Kathy Ireland as an example of rough treatment. The way I look at it, Ms Ireland was involved in a cheap exploitation movie that I would find hard to believe if she took the project as a serious dramatic effort. She seems to be a smart person and went into this with eyes WIDE open. I am positive she was amply compensated as well.
The flip side of this coin is the community theater folks who are not compensated except via love of theater. I am sure many, many of them out act Kathy in their sleep and receive little to no compensation.
I guess my bottom line is if you are not willing for others to interpret your art other than the specific way you express it, its simply not art and you should not put it in the public arena.
I LIKE IT!
I also thought that the show (especially the early years) had a real undercurrent of affection for these old movies that kept the riffing less… abusive. That said, while i’m glad some of the actors and directors have a good sense of humor about it, i’m sure none of us would like our old home movies with a bunch of riffs added to it!
Anyway, Joe Don is a good example and i would add Ross Hagen… both do decent leading-man jobs but don’t have much material to work with.
Look, if you appear in a crap movie you have expect everything about it to smell like crap – and yes peolple will make jokes about you – live with it. The riffs make MST3K the finest thing ever shown on Television!
I’m trying to get some perspective on what it means to put your art in front of a crowd. I recently saw a video of myself doing stand-up, and the jokes I remembered as doing great really didn’t. As a community of open mic-ers, we shake each other’s hands, say, “You did a great set,” and bask in our own glory. So it’s easy to become removed from your audience, some of whom may like you while others hate you. You just got to learn to shake off criticism when it comes. And not harbor resentment.
Simple:Joe Don Baker in Mitchell.
Tough- it’s the price they pay for putting their “work” out there in a free society thought marketplace.
Hell, look at the treatment coaches get. My fav, coach Izzo has gone to five final fours, yet, there are those who call him out when he loses to, Northwestern. I digress.
Get over it- the exposure these actors, directors et al get- well- I’d have never heard of let’s say…Sandy Frank.
The other night Denis Leary was on the Tonight Show and he was saying that the “batting average” for movies is probably about .300 so that for every ten movies you make, there are 7 that are bad. He made fun of Operation Dumbo Drop and Demolition Man…
He has no reason to be bitter. He’s the one that did those crappy movies.
I am o the polar-opposite opinion: There were some movies I feel never got the bashing they deserved, but I have never felt that they were especially cruel to an individual that didn’t deserve it.
It’s not like they actually singled anyone out for individual criticism that often- we all remember the skewering they gave to Ray Dennis Steckler, Joe Don Baker, Coleman Francis, Rick Sloane etc. but can anyone honsetly say they didn’t deserve it? RDS, Francis and Sloane foistered god-awful self-induglence projects on the public in the name of entertainment. JDB signed on to be lead actor in a movie, therby putting himself there to be shot at. Same applies to you, Mr. Graves. (adpots Crow-as-Graves voice): “I’m Peter Graves, and I’m learning to develop a sense of humour, here at the Univesity of Minnesota.”
As it’s been discussed recently, I’d like to dd that TISCWSLABMZ remains the most nauseating piece of movie-making I have ever had the misfortune to watch and for my money, Steckler particularly didn’t get bashed ENOUGH.
One of the reasons it took me forever to like this show is that I thought it was a bit mean. The funny thing is that in the Joel era there was more of an “affectionate” meanness… even for something like “Monster a Go Go,” you sensed that Joel felt a bit betrayed by how bad the movie REALLY was.
Once it got to Sci-Fi, it was merciless, but by that time I was addicted. I think people should have more of an attitude like David “Time Chasers” Giancola… no publicity is bad publicity. David Giancola says the last laugh is on MST; he’s had more publicity and interest in “Time Chasers” than ever before. And in reality, most MST fans look at it like a Dean Martin roast. If they actually MET the actors, I think they’d have a “You were a good sport” attitude.
Wow, what a rich topic and variety of thoughtful responses so far. I can tell already that my post will be a little long, so thanks in advance to whoever reads this.
Let me number my thoughts:
1. As a filmmaker who worked on three low-budget direct-to-video features, I can appreciate the long hours and hard work that go into making films. Nonetheless, if I had the rights to those 3 pieces of crap I would gladly hand them over to the crews of Rifftrax and/or Cinematic Titanic to skewer the bejesus out of them. When you work on the ass-end of the film industry, you generally know that you aren’t making Gone With The Wind, so you have to have a sense of humor about these things.
2. Peter Graves has had a long and mostly distinguished career, even though he is very limited as an actor (the guy is a block of wood). During that time he has enjoyed celebrity, wealth, and enough acclaim that you would think and hope that he’d have a little perspective on and a sense of humor about his less successful work. I doubt that there has ever been an actor, director, writer, producer, etc. that doesn’t have a movie or two they’d like to forget, and while there may be a certain amount of embarrassment at having been associated with such a film, the best defense is to lead the chorus of laughs. I think too many actors take themselves way too seriously.
3. Some actors take roles just for the money (Michael Caine has been famously quoted as saying he did Jaws 4 just so he could buy a mansion he wanted). I find it very hard, then, to feel sorry for them when their movie takes a beating at the hands of the boys.
4. If Joe Don Baker or anyone else wants to get some revenge, all they have to do to make themselves feel superior is to watch a few of the generally labored, unfunny, tedious, and forgettable host segments of MST3K. That’s right, I said it: the host segments were almost never funny or enjoyable, and for me they were usually a fast-forward blur between riffing segments whenever I was watching on VHS or DVD (I caught enough broadcast shows to know). If someone ever wanted to make a riffing show just on MST3K host segments, they would find fertile ground.
5. Did the boys ever go too far? Well, I’ve seen a vast majority of the episodes over the years and I can’t remember ever thinking, “Wow, that one had to hurt”. Maybe that makes me a terrible person. Or maybe most of the cruel jabs came during those horrible host segments that I tried to avoid.
In my opinion, the filmmakers involved in riffed movies should just relax (as someone said above, it’s just a show) because, believe me, if 10,000 years from now some alien race combs through the ruins of human civilization, even they are going to know which movies are crap whether or not the can understand our language.
In “San Francisco International” there were quite a few jokes about David Hartman’s appearance, ultimately going so far as to flat out call him an “ugly, ugly man,” so I think he’d be justified in being unhappy with MST3K. Even Mike lated admitted that he felt bad about those comments.
I really thought the show got progressively more vitriolic, especially after Trace left. In the early years the dialectic of the bad movie was more clear: These movies would be nothing without someone making fun of them, and MST would be nothing if not for the bad movies. Seems like that’s why Miles O’Keefe could still find the show amusing–he knew that the movie stunk and that he’s pretty beefy, and it’s all in good fun.
I even thought the riffing of Mitchell was in bounds for the most part. The character was such a clunk, but there still seemed some kind of regard for Joe Don in the fact that he at least makes a bad movie entertaining (could you see a genuinely bad actor in that role and still conceive watching it?). But Final Justice was plain mean at times.
This also shows why CT is so much better than Rifftrax–when you bash on good movies it’s hard not to sound mean and whiny. A bad movie was meant to be made fun of.
But Rick Sloane–he had it coming
I don’t see a lot of “bitterness” here. It’s three dismissive lines which, it should be noted, are immediately followed by a lengthier discussion about Airplane! and how Graves originally didn’t care for that idea either. He thought Harvey Korman would be better for the airline pilot, which tells you something about what Graves thought the movie was going to be like. But then he realized what was up, and warmed to it.
All that’s by way of saying that I take Graves’s comments less as some sort of bitter put-down of MST3K and more like a statement about his taste in comedy. MST3K? Doesn’t like it. “Carol Burnett Show” type antics, which is what he expected of Airplane!? Doesn’t think much of them.
That having been said, Steven Hill was better in Mission: Impossible than Peter Graves, although I liked Graves just fine. He was a block of wood, though, as said above.
It’s a good thing they didn’t ask Peter Graves about Fury–he might have taken a swing at them!
Mary Jo and I just spent an afternoon this past week at Rick Sloane’s house (‘Hobgoblins’ writer, producer, and director) and he not only enjoyed the MST3K treatment, but felt it was beneficial to his movie and grateful that it gave it a cult status of sorts.
I’m always a little amused when people take themselves a little too self-serious in roles that are obviously not meant to garner Oscar Awards.
RAD
I respect his opinion. MST humor isn’t for everyone (and not in that “the right people will get it” way). He doesn’t strike me as bitter or grumpy. He just isn’t feeling it.
As for Joe Don, I felt sorry for him because of the unwarranted insults towards him and his appearance. I mean, the Brains aren’t exactly GQ model material either. But I hardly think that he STILL holds a grudge. I’m sure he has heard more brutally honest comments towards him from the time he was a kid on the playground onward. He’s probably richer and popular than all of us combined, so I don’t think it’s a big deal.
Besides, I would imagine acting requires an awful lot of thick skin. I think that compared to bad reviews in major newspapers, slandering paparazzi and other personal life/professional life conflicts (stuff that comes with the territory of being in the public eye unfortunately), a defunct TV show and some geeky fans of which with their “WORST MOVIE EVAR!11!11! LOLz!” commentary on the internet is merely a drop in the bucket.
I disagree with GondoRedux on a couple of points. First, Final Justice was a by far more loathsome movie than Mitchell even though Mitchell was more loathsome than Geronimo whatsisname. For all of Mitchell’s din wits and disgusting habits, the film managed at times to have a sense of humor about him. I think it was supposed to: here was this lazy, unappetizing excuse for a cop whom nobody liked or took seriously, yet somehow he bumbled into solving the case. (Whether the script made it convincing was another matter.) Geronimo, however, does nothing but blow into Malta and start bullying and shooting people. Occasionally something interrupts him but the script contrives to get him out of trouble within a few minutes and then it’s back to his cowboy act. When he’s shot his last victim the movie is over. I don’t blame Mike and the crew one bit for hating it.
Second, no way Rifftrax is worse than Cinematic Titanic. I haven’t seen the latest offering, although the last one I did get, the redo of Santa Claus Conquers the Martians, did show that perhaps they were getting the hang of it–I’ll risk at least one more CT purchase, I think. Every one I saw before that was a chore to watch. Partly it was the movie choices but sharp writing should make up for that. It became painfully obvious when I watched CT how much Mike Nelson was necessary to the success of MST3K even when he wasn’t host.
Lord knows Rifftrax is spotty in the extreme, but sometimes it’s hilarious to hear them go into meltdown over a terrible movie. There’s a crucial difference in the terrible movies they do and that MST3K did: since Rifftrax’s focus, rightly or wrongly, is mostly on big-budget movies, when they find a movie that sucks, it sucks even though they’ve supposedly got a big budget, top-level acting, and serious Hollywood production values going for them. Sometimes the only appropriate reaction is fury. I can’t imagine any other sensible response to (say) Battlefield Earth or Episodes II and III of Star Wars. Anyway, usually when the Rifftrax crew is losing it, I’m right there with them.
As an ex-business person, we always thought negative publicity was better than NO publicity. And as RAD points out in response #32,
“it was beneficial to his movie” and it “gave it a cult status of sorts”.
Here’s my take:
Jokes about characters, plot, visuals, acting, directing, etc are guaranteed OK — they’re not directed at people, but at the aspects of the movie, and that was put out there, for better or worse, for the public to review.
Jokes about appearance are harder, but may be acceptable. Obviously implying someone looks like someone else is merely a pattern-matching exercise and hence acceptable. Jokes about clothing/uniform or specifically related to the character (e.g, how Torgo walks, talks, dresses) are also kosher. However, when they’re directed at the person specifically, and obviously disparaging (end credits to Final Justice, for example) they really push against the line of acceptable humor. For example, I believe that scene would have been much more palatable had Joel’s character been there to “disapprove” of the bots’ jokes, whereas Mike’s character only becomes upset when he believes they’d planned a line ahead of time.
In the end, though, it’s important to remember that MST3k is fiction, and the statements made on the show are lines spoken by characters, not actual people’s opinions.
In the same way that a person writing about or playing Hitler shouldn’t be assumed to be an anti-semite, the people “made fun of” in MST3k should be aware that the actual writers/actors/etc of the show don’t necessarily feel the same way about them as the characters do.
It may be understandable that some people are upset, but it isn’t justified.
In short, it’s just a show. You should really just relax.
I’m surprised that Graves felt this way. I thought that they went really easy on him, more like a celebrity roast, where there’s clearly underlying respect in the barbs. Definitely more the “Jack Perkins” treatment than the “Joe-Don Baker” treatment. Kind of makes me want to take back the good things I said about Graves a few weeks ago.
I also don’t buy this idea that every film deserves praise because movie-making is tough. In this age we see far cleverer things being made by private citizens on Youtube than a lot of the junk coming out of Hollywood. So forgive me for not subscribing to the “everyone gets a gold star for effort” philosophy. A lot of these movies are lousy because they took shortcuts, and that is not worthy of praise. We’ve also spent a lot of time on this board pointing out how many of the MST3K films have merit, but were under-budgeted or put together by a really young and inexperienced director. Mocking these is like mocking your first school play; in retrospect they’re bad, but in a fun way. If you can check your ego at the door, the “roasting” can be fun even for the roasted.
There may also be a generational issue here. The Hobgoblins crew was mercilessly lampooned, and they loved it, even the couple who are now legitimate actors. Ditto for the Time Chasers crew. I think the respectable old Hollywood types may have a harder time with the concept of MST3K. Beverly Garland’s attitude about goes against the grain, but admittedly they were very easy on her. And who wouldn’t be!?
I also thought that they went pretty easy on the recently-deceased. There weren’t too many personal attacks on Raul Julia or Lee van Cleaf; mostly they mocked the characters, or the movie itself, not the actors. With Julia, for instance, they routinely made jokes about how he wanted out of the film or had better roles he’d prefer to be doing (ie, “don’t look…it’s embarassing!).
There were a few times the MST3K crew might have gone a bit far: Joe Don Baker, Carolyn Brandt and Rick Sloane come to mind, but I can’t think of too many others. Someone mentioned David Hartman, and I agree that was a bit below the belt. Given their ten-year effort, occasional over-reaching was bound to happen. Comedy can be risky. You can’t please everyone; some folks have good senses of humor and others don’t.
I mentioned this in the recent episode guide post for The Incredibly Strange Creatures, but I’ll mention it again… I read in an interview with Ray Dennis Steckler (Cash Flagg) that he found the jokes they told to be anti-Semitic… Having watched the episode again recently, I couldn’t see what he was talking about… Was it the fact that they call the dancing couple Aryans?
Also, something I never cared for was that it seemed that whenever there was a woman over about 5’6″, they start making jokes about her being a transvestite. Sometimes they were funny, but a lot of times they just seem to go on for too long (the jokes in TISC being an example)…
Anytime a character was overweight, they invariably made jokes about them being fat and eating too much and being unable to control themselves or their bodies.
Look, I’m as insanely devoted to the show as the next fan, but as somebody married to a fat person it just felt, dang, like they really hate and don’t understand fat people– which is weird since Kevin and Mary Jo are not exactly svelte themselves.
Without fail, in ANY of the of the episodes that had a fat person, they would do this. Dang.
Of course Mr. Graves is justified in his dislike. It’s fine. He has his opinion, I have my opinion, we all have our own opinion and that’s fine. We are all correct on this one. There is no wrong answer.
Strangely enough, at the MST3k Origins panel at CONvergence this year, Frank made a point of mentioning how good an actor he thought Joe Don Baker was, bringing up several of his roles, like in Scorcese’s “Cape Fear.”
He and Joel also mentioned that they’d met several actors, like Robbie Benson, who said how much they enjoyed the show. Frank said something about how actors are brought in to do the best they can with the script they’re given, and most of them know when they’re in a ****ty movie. “Except for like, Will Smith,” added Frank, where their involvement is the reason the film got made.
Sandy Frank, Sandy Frank, likes to crap in his hands. Ummhh maybe personal attacks like that are why we can’t get any Sandy Frank movies, “Gamera”, “Time of the Apes” etc. …I’m just saying. :???:
Beverly Garland loved MST3K and got the joke.She knew she starred in a lot of crappy movies and loved what Joel and the bots did to them.Some actors take their work a little bit too seriously,even when the movie is junk.I think some actors need to lighten up.Besides,if it hadn’t been for MST3K,then would we have ever known about Manos or Coleman Francis??Also,towards the end,I don’t think the movies they chose were as bad as I would have liked.Some didn’t deserve it,of course..Didn’t MST3K give most of these movies a second life? Or in Manos’s case,a first life?? Maybe some actors don’t like being reminded that they were in these movies,perhaps? I’m sure they’re pretty embarrassed about it to this day,but that’s the price you pay,isn’t it??
no artist or artist wannabe should EVER hand in a finished product thinking it was perfect and no one would dare criticize it. the MST3K crew was a little rough sometimes but in most if not all cases it was warranted in some way.
I have zero sympathy for anyone in the film biz. No other industry is so self-congratulatory as this one (the bizillion award shows are a case in point). They’ve also spawned their own propaganda machine with OMG, TMZ, etc etc.
Yeah, it takes a lot of work to make a film. It also takes a lot of work to: build a building, conduct scientific research, serve your country/gov’t/city too.
Anyway to get to MST. One of the reasons the show finally tanked wasn’t because distributors weren’t releasing moves; it was because they were RAISING royalties because MST’d films were being rented/bought after showing.
Short answer: Get over it. You got paid, probably more than you deserved…
I think things got mean and petty from time to time during the Sci-Fi years.
Prime examples are calling the dancer in ‘TISCWSLBMUZ’ a man and their attitude towards ‘Soul Taker’ (if memory serves they called it ‘crap’ or some such thing).
They became mean to halfway competent movies, the way they never were to “Manos” or other horribly executed films during the Comedy Central years.
http://amiannoying.com/(S(is043t55og5b3o451yb0we55))/view.aspx?ID=11849
I guess Peter Graves liking the show, and planning an appearance has just been debunked as an Urban Legend.
Don’t forget Robert Fiveson, the director of Clonus. He claimed he was a fan of MST3K before they riffed his movie. Although, in the Rhino interview he still referred to the robots as stupid.
I was going to write something about the Brains being equal-opportunity mockers, and my example was going to be fat vs thin. Then I saw this . . .
“Anytime a character was overweight, they invariably made jokes about them being fat and eating too much and being unable to control themselves or their bodies.
Look, I’m as insanely devoted to the show as the next fan, but as somebody married to a fat person it just felt, dang, like they really hate and don’t understand fat people– which is weird since Kevin and Mary Jo are not exactly svelte themselves.
Without fail, in ANY of the of the episodes that had a fat person, they would do this. Dang.”
without disparaging your perspective – which is legit in and of itself – this, it seems to me, is just showing that your bias has made you more apt to pick up on this kind of joke. I’m a very thin person, and I’ve noticed that the Brains mock BOTH fat and thin people ruthlessly whenever they’re on screen. The difference is that really, truly thin people are rarer in the movies they did than are larger people. But some examples:
Diamond Head: (about the thin Asian woman): “Eat a sandwich!!” “Hmm, if I don’t eat for a month . . .” “I didn’t know you could eat.”
Final Sacrifice: (about the scrawny kid) “He’s poured into that sweater.” Plus making sounds like he’s straining to move small objects.
Squirm: (about the redheaded woman): “A plucked stork!” “A swizzle stick with hair!” etc.
They were just as brutal as towards any fat person. And I’ll note that when the *movie* was mocking a fat person, they often called foul, as they did with racial and gender issues. Ring of Terror springs to mind.
The point is, the riffers were, in general, trying to find humor in, and make fun of, almost *anything that was on screen.* If it was Canada, they mocked Canada viciously even though I’m sure none of them hate it in reality. Same goes for Britain. And if Lee van Cleef was too old to make a convincing ninja, they pointed it out. If Donald Pleasance said “Pyuma” oddly, that’s what they commented on. If Hobgoblins was a god-awful film, they vented on Rick Sloan.
OK, that may have been harsh, but to be fair, they mocked their *interpretation* of who Rick Sloan was, which was a parody NOT of Rick Sloan himself (since they had no idea what he was like) but of a stereotype of bad directors in general.
So the point is, they went after prety much whatever struck them funny, which of course they hoped would also be funny for their audience. Fat, thin, young, old, scrawny, burly, bald, hirsute, ugly, handsome, smart, dumb – they made fun of any and all of these things because they are things the audience can easily pick up on and relate to. The fact that they are all polar opposites basically proves that the Brains weren’t expressing real opinions about them, unless the opinion were to be “normal and average are best,” which is damn unlikely given the non-mainstream nature of the riffers themselves.
So to sum up: Actors are inextricably bound up with their characters in the public mind. We know technically that there’s a distinction, but for most of us the person is defined by their roles. If the roles are diverse, we’re less likely to mentally typecast them than if the roles tend to be similar. So did the Brains go overboard on Joe Don? A few times, in FJ, but in general it’s hard to say whether they really meant to mock the character or the actor, since the association was so close (and since they thought the actor was already hostile anyway . . .). Their error, if any, was in letting that line get too blurry for them.
And, having monologued on that, I’ll agree with others that we should really just relax.
“This also shows why CT is so much better than Rifftrax–when you bash on good movies it’s hard not to sound mean and whiny. A bad movie was meant to be made fun of.”
*That* is completely subjective, as the attitudes of the miffed actors/directors shows. Whether something was “meant” to be riffed is a personal opinion. There are people out there who just adore stuff like Twilight and Titanic. Me? I want them to savage it until it’s bleeding from the ears and then dump it in a convenient ditch. Totally subjective.
So I agree with #34. I wish CT were better, since any riffing by the MST3k folks ought to be a boon and a pleasure, but it just hasn’t been for their part (though Santa Claus was pretty good, I’ll agree). Rifftrax is hit-and-miss, but it’s usually worth my time – especially the shorts.
did anyone read the whole comment that was written above, to much to read, write a comment not an editorial.
Despite the effort it takes to make a movie, what is shown on the screen is what matters. That is, after all, what the audience sees and hears. No matter what greater knowledge people may have of movie making, thanks to DVD extras, etc, it doesn’t change that simple fact.
I guess there are times when an actor or director is justified in being displeased with some of the riffs. I must admit that I think they were a bit hard on Carolyn Brandt, but it was only after they compared her to Ted Danson. The tranny stuff was fine, but saying she looked like Ted Danson was rather mean.
Peter Graves doesn’t specify what he wasn’t pleased with in regard to MST3K. With him, MST3K makes Mission: Impossible, Biography or James Arness riffs. (How those two are brothers, I have no idea. They look nothing alike.)