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The AV Club: MST3K and “the Interloper”In today’s “TV Roundtable” at the AV Club, the topic was not just MST3K, not just a particular episode of MST3K (821- TIME CHASERS), but a specific aspect of that episode, vis: Does the appearance of Mike’s surly brother Eddie make him “an effective interloper?” I gather this is just one installment of a whole session of discussions about the “interloper.”
My $0.02: One of the delights of MST3K is that anything — including the kind of narrative complexity and character development these folks are talking about — that got in the way of the JOKES was cheerfully thrown overboard. I fear the roundtable members are searching the MST3K ship for something that was tossed in the drink long ago. But, hey, the comments section is jumpin’ and that’s the real point, right? :-) Just kiddin’, guys. 64 Replies to “The AV Club: MST3K and “the Interloper””Commenting at Satellite News
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All content posted on Satellite News is copyright © 2024 by Chris Cornell and Brian Henry, except where otherwise noted. This Date in MSTory is written and compiled by Steve Finley, Chris Cornell and Brian Henry. Copyright © 2024 All rights reserved. Please do not reproduce This Date in MSTory items in any form without express written permission from the authors. Items of MST3K news may be duplicated or reposted, as long as Satellite News is cited as the source. The views and opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of Satellite of Love, LLC. No warranty is expressed or implied that the information given herein is completely accurate, and in fact this information can and will change at any time. So there. Mystery Science Theater 3000, its characters and situations are copyrights and trademarks of Satellite of Love, LLC. Banner image created by Larry Lee Moniz. |
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Sorta. TV Roundtable is a discussion of recurring themes in TV, and the current stretch is interlopers. As for your assessment of the discussion, I’d both agree and disagree. There is a looseness to the continuity in the name of what’s funny, but we still do get at least a general sense of who the characters are and how they think. There are some riffs that only Crow could get away with, and stuff Joel could do that wouldn’t work if Mike did it and vice versa.
The Onion does a lot of political humor. Why are you allowing people to comment?
The heck is an “interloper”?
I like the Time Travel just for one episode subplot. It worked better than the forced arcs mandated by the Sci-Fi channel executives.
A trespasser, I guess.
I love you Frank, we all do, but let it go. Previous discussions of your stuff led to truly ugly political venom and Chris & Brian quite rightfully believe that has no place here. Don’t take it so personally. (I had naively thought MSTies were above such nonsense, but politics brings out the worst in people. Especially in Congress, badump-tish.)
Frank, the Onion has a lot of political humor, but it is not one sided. That’s all I’ll say about that…
using “interloper” like that sounds like some sort of TV Tropes-ish attempt to put everything into clearly defined boxes
and Frank. Seriously. Chill out.
Oh, my God, people in this thread are expressing their opinions about things, for God’s sake, shut this conversation down, shut it down!
Did i miss something? The thread is talking television themes, then Frank mentions the Onion and asks why comments are being allowed here? (to which, I naturally think, ‘Why shouldn’t they be?, are not comments always allowed here? And what’s this about the Onion?‘ But I’m new here and assume comments are always ON.)
Did mayhap a parcel of political humor get snipped from the thread?
Guys, I can’t figure this out. Did Frank MEAN to ask, “Why are you allowing comments if you are going to censor me?”
Script continuity! Script continuity! What is Frank supposed to chill from? I can’t even find the flaming except my own!
My circuits are fryin’! Everybody’s in on the joke but me!
Help me! Help me! I’m a done Tom Turkey! Help me! I’m burnin’!
I’ve read the frikkin’ thread five times and I’m still lost as Marilyn Manson.
Maybe I’m just slow this morning.
Meanwhile, next on Game Of Thrones: Kim Kardashian swallows a dragon and takes King’s Landing to the hilt, while Wilt “the hilt” Chamberlain accuses Kanye West of being an amateur interloper … also, a milkmaid will have sex with a warlock mushroom farmer and birth a Mushlock Maid with attitude … H… B… O…
And that’s in just the first five minutes of G.O.T.
Got G.O.T.? haha
People should be able to express their opinions on a silly fan web site even if it’s political, even if it’s a political point of view that you don’t agree with. Turning off the comments section and giving the reason that it’s the avoid the controversy of any political discussion is somewhat cowardly and lets face it, you personally don’t agree with the point of view so you simple want to quite individuals that may differ from you personal points of view and that is wrong. Let people express their opinions you should never turn off the comments in a way that censorship. And don’t give me the accuse that things can unpleasant when politics if a topic, lets face it, it’s just a bunch of people communicating over the internet it’s not like a fist fight will break out or something, I mean we are not even in the same room or city or state or sometimes even country. If you think I am wrong let me know.
In•ter•lop•er
[in-ter-loh-per] Show IPA
noun
1.
a person who interferes or meddles in the affairs of others: He was an athiest who felt like an interloper in this religious gathering.
2.
a person who intrudes into a region, field, or trade without a proper license.
The Onion and The AV Club are connected, but they’re really two different entities. It’s like saying “How can we be discussing The Office when MSNBC covers politics?”
This web site is not a public utility. We are not required to air all views on all subjects. We make the rules. One of the rules is: No political discussions.
In the rare cases where, based on 15 years of experience running this site, we suspect a particular post has the potential to spark a political discussion in the comments, we close comments and direct those who wish to comment to sites where such comments will be permitted and appropriate.
ANYONE who disapproves of this rule, or the way we run this web site, is cordially invited not to visit. Thank you.
What’s the old saying?
“If you want to keep friends around, never discuss politics, religion or pizza toppings.”
Or something like that.
@ 14:
You forgot the Great Pumpkin.
Well, Sampo, since you closed comments on my non-political podcast, which I worked very hard on and am very proud of, just because you were afraid that my non-political podcast would spark a political discussion simply because of my involvement, I graciously accept your invitation to not visit here anymore. Thank you, goodbye.
The problem with the internet is that it’s too immediate. As Craig Ferguson said, the immediacy of the internet has caused people to rarely take the time to ask themselves, “Does this need to be said?” and “Does this need to be said by *me*?” and “Does this need to be said by me *now*?” Then, of course, it’s the internet. You’re hidden. You’re anonymous. You’re more of a jerk when you drive than when you’re walking, aren’t you? Because you feel protected my your anonymousness…ness.
The only reason I’ve decided to post this at all is because I’m a craven coward who felt like this was mildly relevant.
Good Lord! WHAT IS GOING ON IN THIS COMMUNITY?! Could we please act like mature adults, here? This website has been created by some wonderful people. Without them, we wouldn’t have this website. I’m sure they are making rules to avoid another horrible flamewar. Do we honestly need to be reminded of how awful and stupid that was?
Everyone needs to calm down a bit. I agree with Goshzilla. I can’t fathom why we can’t be above such nonsense.
Ok, I assume that this was all a little play where the discussion thread represents the TV show and Frank represents the so-called “interloper.”
Bravo! Satirical and thoughtful! A tour-de-force of a collaborative effort!
Sublime!
But I still don’t get it.
Or was that the whole point? I wasn’t supposed to get it. I was just supposed to contemplate it and determine on my own how it will effect my inner being and wellness.
Brilliant!
Frank, no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1) I adore your work and consider you to be on the Mt. Rushmore of MST3K. Your delivery was (and is) so unique and hilarious, I can’t even begin to tell you how much joy you’ve brought to my life over the years.
2) I happen to agree with your political viewpoints in a huge way and find your Twitter observations to be some of the funniest political humor on the internet.
3) Don’t go!
In case I was unclear, I love Frank!!!!
I have no idea what they’re talking about in the article. Something about whether or not MSTies get upset when aspects of the MST3K changed? What?
I think what #20 is trying to say is: “Let me be frank about Frank. LET ME BE FRANK ABOUT FRANK! ‘Cause Frank is the best Frank, that’s ever happened to meeeeee….”
Yeah, I’m with Droppo. Don’t go, Frank.
I enjoy your Facebook feed very much and am entertained by your wit, the same snarky wit that can be seen up at comment #9.
But as you can see above, just the mere MENTION of politics here at MSTinfo has gotten some people’s juices flowing, as politics are wont to do. The internet is full of places were people spit the venom of politics, showing up in the strangest of places. I am thankful that MSTinfo dotcom is NOT one of those places. This community here at MSTinfo is probably the nicest, most well mannered bunch of commenters on the interwebs. Talking politics will just ruin it. This is a place to talk and express and debate (yes, DEBATE!) our love for a certain cow-town puppet show. This is a place for the sharing of our collective memories and experiences with the show, whether you’ve been watching for 20 years or just discovered the show last year. This is a place for shared understanding and common interests. So it is nothing like Congress (BA-DA BOOM!)
Frank, I get the sense from your comments that you feel unjustly censored here at this site, and honestly, that’s between you and Sampo and Erhardt, and I would think such a thing (if it is “A thing”) should be handled in a non-public forum.
I’m just trying to mediate here.
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LIKE this comment if you want to see Frank and Sampo hug and make up.
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-Also,
This AV Club article isn’t very good, honestly. I mean, I usually dig their articles and such, but this one doesn’t seem to go anywhere or say anything….really. It neither discusses the show properly or the idea of interlopers, in my opinion.
Isn’t there some way to just temporarily ban people who post hostile political comments? Why do whole threads need to be locked?
I’ve been confused about this before, but I’ve always assumed that the site operators have their reasons. Still, I am curious to know.
Let me know when the AV Club starts discussing “the interocitor”.
I guess you could say that Sampo…
…pushed Frank’s buttons.
Sorry, that was pretty bad.
But seriously, don’t leave Frank, we’d hate to see you go.
I saw a jackalope once.
I saw an esquilax the other day when I was out ‘squatchin’. Cryptid serendipity.
May I ratchet up the level of geeky hysteria here for a moment? This is Frank! If he can’t feel welcomed on THE MST3K fan site….what hope is there?
Frank, we love you.
Sampo’s right that this isn’t a public utility and he can run the site by whatever rules he wants.
Frank’s right that preemptively shutting down all discussion of Frank based on his politics, even on posts that are completely unrelated to said politics, is kind of a dick move. It’s one thing to disable comments on posts about, say, Frank writing for Current TV in the name of avoiding political discussion, but it’s another to do it on articles that are about Frank and have nothing to do with his politics.
I’m with Raptorial Talon: if people break the rules, ban them. Don’t preemptively halt all discussion on one of the Brains because he has political views.
James Lileks’s politics are pretty well-known too. Have you locked any threads that have his name in the headline?
What about Mike? I don’t agree with his politics. If I were to start complaining about Mike’s politics in every thread about Mike, would you start preemptively locking every thread about Mike, or would you just ban me and let everybody else continue talking about Mike? I sincerely hope you’d have the sense to do the latter.
(Hypothetically, I mean. It’s not something I would actually do; I think Mike is great despite our political differences and I’m more likely to be the guy saying “So what?” when some other commenter feels the need to bring up the subject in a therad about Rifftrax or what-have-you.)
Back on-topic — since threads that veer nastily off-topic is, at least ostensibly, the very thing we are complaining about –, I haven’t been keeping up with all the AV Club’s Interloper posts, but I read the one about Frank Grimes on The Simpsons and this one makes two. I have to agree that this is a pretty thin example of the “Interloper” trope they’re identifying, and most of the writers in the article seem to agree (those that even acknowledge that’s what they’re supposed to be talking about at all). The way I read the trope, the Interloper is supposed to be somebody who breaks the suspension of disbelief, a normal person who walks into the middle of a comedy and hangs a lampshade on how effing crazy everything is. (I daydream of one day writing an episode of a cop drama where somebody comes to visit and, every time a computer makes a stupid deet-deet-deet noise, looks over his shoulder at it quizzically and asks why their computers make that sound, and hey, that giant flashing red all-caps font sure creates usability problems, and aren’t you wasting a bunch of cycles by flashing all those images across the screen for a tenth of a second every time you do a search for something?)
Eddie’s not an interloper. He changes the tone ever so slightly, but he doesn’t question anything we take for granted about the premise of the show. For all that the opening of the article tries to distinguish him from the times Gypsy or Pearl or anybody else unexpected shows up in the theater, that distinction is silly and arbitrary. The episode’s role in the Interloper series’ premise is thin, and this was clearly just an excuse for the AV Club to talk about MST3K.
Which is fine! And Time Chasers is a great episode.
(Anyhow, Frank, just in case you were lying about Leaving Forever and are still reading this, I was TV’s Frank for Halloween one year in high school.)
Shouldn’t the term be “intertroper?”
Har har har.
This is the most confusing thread I’ve ever come across. I asked for clarification but it’s muddier than ever. I can only surmise it has to do with activity outside of the thread itself and/or a past history between Frank and Sampo about political statements elsewhere on this site, or on AV (which is part of Onion though different, etc) or in a podcast or… or… or… somewhere that remains unclear.
Group dynamics theory – going back to ancient AOL days and even more ancient BBS days on GEnie hanging with other authors – throws the responsibility of figuring out the group’s history on the newbie, through a long and painful process of deduction, induction, and if on a dating thread, seduction.
To the casual observer/newbie, this thread appears to be apples and oranges … and Onions.
Ah well.
Be seeing you.
So, I guess I’ll never be able to ask Frank what it’s like to be a platinum blonde. :(
#31: You can ask me! No? Sorry, too soon…
@16
Wow, what a jerk.
Maybe he should go off the wagon again if that’s his attitude sober.
See right there, where the ocean is cascading off the edge into oblivion?
Point of no return.
Yep.
I can feel the ship tilting.
Carry on my wayward son… carry on.
P.S.
We’re all getting old.
@33 I’ve never heard that Frank has ever had a drinking problem. And that’s a terrible thing to say one way or the other. The private lives of the cast are none of our damn business anyway. What the heck has happened to this fandom?
BOOOOOOOOO, #33! BOOOOOOOOOOO!! HISS! BOOOOOOOO! :no:
Poor taste, Sam. :no:
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Gorn Captain: Yeah, Frank has been sober for, I think, 20 years or something. I can’t recall exactly. He brought it up at a stand-up show I saw him at here in Portland* some months back, which is the only reason I’m mentioning it here now (private lives of the cast, and all..). I think it’s great that he’s been able to maintain his sobriety for so long. In fact, I think he might of got on the wagon when he started being on MST, which is why there are a lot of AA and 12-step program references in earlier seasons. If any MSTies out there are struggling with alcoholism, know that you’ve got a friend in Frank.
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* = a joke Frank did that night went something like: “I’ve been sober for 20 years now,” (applause from the crowd), “and I know that I’m only ever one drink away from having a really f–king good time.”
@30
If you’re wondering what the hoopla is about, there have been two or three (maybe more, my memory is fuzzy) threads either directly involving Frank’s political humor, or threads that involved politics which Frank participated in. Most of those have not been recent, since the site operators have preemptively locked the comments on any thread thought to be a risk for more political flaming.
For an example of one of the threads that started this, some years ago there was plug/interview for Cinematic Titanic on Keith Olberman’s now-defunct MSNBC show. The very presence of a polarizing figure like Olberman made about half a dozen posters here launch into a flame war in which insults and hostility came through, instead of restraint and civility. Very unkind things were said. Frank was a bit edgy as usual, but some of the posters said stuff to him that went way past edgy and deep into viciousness.
I can understand why Sampo and Erhardt wouldn’t want those kinds of comments on their site, since most people hate it when politics contaminates their entertainment. Ugly comments on one’s site would tend to drive down viewership if anyone felt threatened or disgusted.
Still, I always felt like temporarily banning the perpetrators and deleting their comments seemed preferable to permanently hiding everyone else’s comments and discussion. But again, it’s not my site, I’ve never run a website, and so I don’t really know what the important factors are.
@ Raptorial Talon, 37.
My thanks to you go beyond measure. I suffer that disease I believe afflicts many of the gifted personalities here: I can be overly analytical no matter how much I attempt to let things be.
(But I did score well on bizarre nested IF statements back in the days of COBOL caves. So there’s that.)
Your explanation of history allows me much rest.
In light of the data, my own answer/oil on troubled waters/observation about the event may sound simplistic: Allow Sampo to be Sampo and Frank to be Frank.
I realize that is like saying let baking soda be baking soda and vinegar to be vinegar at this moment and doesn’t solve anything. But we all enjoy a chemical reaction now and then. The KEY, I believe, is to make sure you wear gloves and goggles and try to strictly observe. Some kind of Zen Buddhism laboratory. Not always easy, since polarizing subjects do just that. Even trying to nip polarizing subjects in the bud can be a polarizing action.
(Kurt Göedel, wherever you are, help me out here. I’ve painted myself into a self referential corner.)
Even though I stumbled into a slightly volatile situation, the beauty of the joint shines through.
Solid things do that.
I’m a very very green MYSTie compared to most of you that visit this nicely pieced together fan site.
Yet I couldn’t feel more at home around the experts and the humor.
And Frank saying his was taking Sampo up on his offer and cordially leaving, was, well, presented in a funny way. Humor is sometimes so goshdarn painful.
OK, back to lurking for me. Thank you for your indulgence. As Rob Reiner said in This Is Spinal Tap… “enough of my yakkin'”
B.C.N.U.
I like tuwtles.
Thad, the difference between not agreeing with Mike or any of the other MST alumni is that they did not make their post-MST career so politicized, while Frank did. If he gets a better response by doing (very one-sided) political material, good for him, but the risk to a neutral forum is alienating half the commenters. Frank has been more than “a bit edgy as usual” on occasion and having the celebrities fighting with the fans is not the sort of website Sampo want. (Do you ban Frank if he is offensive? Or just the fans? Do you think they’ll think that’s fair?) They post the desired news and direct people to go there or not based on their interest in Frank. That seems like a pretty reasonable position to take.
If someone is demanding control over your website they will leave eventually no matter what you do.
#33: really awful comment.
In general, I feel this whole thing is ridiculous. Frank deserves the utmost respect from the MST3K community. He’s one of the chief reasons why many of us fell in love with the show, myself included.
Not trying to spark a fire or anything but – why are you denying freedom of speech on your website? Are you afraid that people debating political opinions will derail your website or something? I love this site and will be coming back but – it Makes no sense in my mind; you really think political opinions will destory the comments or something? Id like to know the reasoning behind this rule – that’s all just curious. And what the hell is an interloper? in this context atleast- I understand the dictionary defintion.
Frank, Yes! Sampo censorship, No!
ARRIVE
COMPLAIN
LEAVE
Frank 3:16
Yeah, really lame (sorry) article. Got bored part way through it. Seriously: The hell is an interloper?
And Sam (@33 and @44): You better watch your back…
Raptorial Talon @23: I totally agree.
Frank, we miss you!
I really think everyone is overreacting a little to this whole thing. Frank isn’t gone. He’s just not visiting this website anymore. He’s still on Facebook and Twitter, isn’t he?
@40
It’s true, Frank can sometimes go overboard on the provocation. I almost get the sense that he sometimes deals with rude comments online the same way he would deal with hecklers during a performance, which can rankle some people because, I think, a forum like this is not his personal venue in the way that a show of his would be. So, I can see how his replies could come across as demanding or even entitled, although I myself usually agree with his indignation. I do agree, though, that any rules here need to be applied fairly, without special treatment for anybody.
(And like I said, my memory is fuzzy, so I can’t recall exactly what he’s said here in the past. Plus the threads are hidden, so I can’t refresh my memory.)
He’s certainly not afraid to defend himself, regardless of how any of us interpret that.
@46
It’s a damn shame that a brilliantly funny cast member of the show we love, and one of the only ones to post here semi-regularly, would be driven away by any real or perceived slight against their work and their dignity. It’s not that Frank isn’t around anywhere, it’s that he’s not around at a site which is only possible because of the great work he put into the show that the site is based on!
#47, all due respect, why in the heck wouldn’t one of the most beloved stars of MST3K be afforded special treatment on a fan site dedicated to MST3K?!? Doesn’t that strike anyone else as absurd?
I’m here because I love the work HE directly contributed to as a writer and performer.
@48
Well, in general terms, yeah, a cast member should get more credit and more respect around here. They should get special treatment in that regard. Their input should generally carry more weight than the rest of us, although as someone else pointed out, no cast member actually controls the site itself, and they can’t reasonably demand to just take control for themselves. (I’m not saying that’s actually what’s been done here, but it’s a fair point to keep in mind, since some people might interpret it that way.)
When it comes to forum rules about civility or what kinds of topics are or aren’t allowed, there have to be limits. Just in general, on any website that allows comments, certain rules have to be enforced. If a rule says “no racist language” and someone, even someone we respect, were to go around insulting people by using racist language, why would we tolerate that? Why would we give special allowances to someone to violate basic decency? I mean, stuff like personal attacks, using offensive language, posting porn, and posting advertisements for unrelated products and services are all banned for good reason in pretty much every forum around. There have to be at least some limits that no one is allowed to get special treatment on.
Those are more extreme, cut-and-dried examples, I admit, but the point is the same. If the rule here is that political discussions are to be avoided because they lead to rudeness and general unpleasantness, why would the site operators allow even a respected cast member to rile up people into the very thing we all hope to avoid? For each site, the operators get to choose their own rules, and Sampo and co. have decided that allowing political discussions is not in their best interests. That’s their prerogative, and frankly they’ve been pretty generous to allow this overall derailment to proceed. (Which I appreciate, personally.)
I’m trying to see as many perspectives as I can here. I agree with Frank that shutting down discussion of his work merely because he exercises his right to have political opinions may be excessive. But I also agree with Sampo that this is a private website, and it is under no obligation to allow just any and all forms of speech. Certain rules have to be followed in order to maintain decorum and prevent the site from devolving into constant off-topic attacks, and in order for rules to be fair, they have to be applied equally to all participants. I further agree with the fans that it’s a shame to alienate someone that most of us have so much respect for, hence my trying to suggest possible compromises. Ultimately, of course, it’s not our ballpark.
I know this is all off-topic in itself, but I’m hoping that having this discussion now will help prevent these kinds of issues from flaring up in the future. Sort of a sacrificial thread to keep this kind of conflict from overtaking the normal content in other threads.
The people have spoken, censorship is wrong; you should let the people speak their minds on this site. I’m talking to you shampoo.
Or perhaps we will all leave the site and form our thing somewhere else, and leave you here all along by yourself.
As the French say Plaisanterie.