Having just done “Monster A-Go Go” in this week’s episode guide and “Manos” only a few weeks away (both would have to be included in this list), it definitely seems like a timely topic. I once made the mistake of showing “Manos” to my sister as her very first episode. I guess I thought she could handle it. She couldn’t. Oh well. Lesson learned.
One I would pick is on the most recent set: “Last of the Wild Horses,” featuring a difficult black-and-white movie and host segments you would only really appreciate if you knew the show and the characters very well. But I just love it.
What’s your pick?
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Definitely Manos. One of the review blogs stated that it’s more properly a hazing episode to separate the casual fans from the dedicated fans. But let us not forget the Coleman Francis Trilogy, which is only meant for hardened souls.
I’d say ‘Hamlet’. Many people can’t handle Shakespeare, let alone a dreary German version of one of his plays. Plus, this episode is considered one of MSTs weakest episodes. I can barely sit through it myself.
Having watched The Castle of Fu Manchu recently, this is one of those graduate, if not PhD levels. Although it has a plot, it is hidden from a casual viewer and a mystery to those who watch it more often. It relies on a lot of stock footage at the start, and has quite a few shots that are all black, or nearly so. The Shout copy doesn’t help it much. And the host segments are more down than up, after a stirring pep song at the start.
“The Corpse Vanishes” might also qualify. It’s dreary, slow, in non-interesting shades of black & white, and Lugosi doesn’t really cut loose in it.
And, while I liked “Hamlet”, it’s probably true that it’s not for the casual fan.
I loved Red Zone Cuba right from the first time I saw it, which made my family avoid eye contact with me for a while. It took them another viewing or two to warm up to it; then “YOU shove off” was heard throughout the house.
I think Racket Girls might fit well into the idea of a “graduate-level” episode: terrible, dull, pseudo-erotic, plot lame and very weak, with some oddly disturbing host segments yet wonderful riffing (“Peaches is getting clingy”). I can’t say I love this ep, but I can certainly tolerate it & even enjoy it once in awhile.
Thanks for using my suggestion, Sampo!
I’m going to say the first half of season 8, because watching the storyline out of order can be confusing for a newbie, but for a hardcore fan who’s seen them all in order, it can be fun.
Now here’s an interesting thought: “Mitchell.” Would you consider it a spoiler for a newbie’s first episode? Obviously, we all know there’s two hosts, but I like to build up newbies first before revealing to them how the switch happened.
I would say Wild World of Batwoman. I’ve seen it several times and only vaguely know what’s going on. Hamlet is one of my favorite episodes. I watched it with a relative MST novice a few years ago and she liked it as well.
The funny thing is, I showed Manos to several friends as a “You’re not gonna believe this” sort of thing and they all loved it, so they’d probably love Coleman Francis just as much. I would agree with Last Of The Wild Horses on the basis of sketches and movie both, but then again, some people love dreary old westerns, so you never know. Much as it breaks my heart to do so, I would probably go with season one in its entirety, even though I love love love some of those episodes, just because the pacing is so slow compared with where they ended up. Kinda hard to sell someone on an awesomely funny show when you’re waiting for the gags yourself.
Any of the Finnish movies, especially the Sword and the Dragon where the Bots do the hilarious, but not-for-newbies, “Ingmar Bergman Tells a Joke” sketch.
Also, The Creeping Terror. Great episode, but the movie drags like nothing else I’ve ever experienced.
Revenge of the Neptune Men. The battle scenes seem endless. Correct me if I’m wrong, I’ve heard they used actual war footage, which I find repellant. I’ve never been able to watch that movie all the way through more than once.
The KTMA episodes. I actually enjoy them, partly because they are a look back at the series before it was in full stride. The style and purpose were slightly different, and the spirit was just taking shape. Probably not for the uninitiated, though.
I definitely have to agree on Castle of Fu Manchu. If anyone can explain that movie, they’ll graduate Summa Cum Laude.
I will throw the Creeping Terror in there. I should have never shown it to my wife for her second episode- i think it broke her :(
I think you nailed with Manos, Monster and Fu Manchu. Creeping Terror is another episode that is an acquired taste. I would also go with Unearthly, Yucca Flats (Tor Johnson = Master’s Thesis?) Skydivers and Red Zone Cuba. I guess the trend is for dreary B/W films.
I’d have to go with “Mad Monster,” which even by Season One standards was pretty tough going–definitely one of the most boring films of all time, and the riffing level wasn’t enough to make something decent out of it. I’d also add “Ring of Terror,” which had good riffing, but had an almost unwatchable print of a pretty turgid film to begin with. Plus, that one had the short after the film, which might be a little unsettling. If you’re going to suggest that the Season Eight host segments can’t be watched out of order, I’d say the same for the early episodes that featured Commando Cody or “Phantom Creeps”–I know they’re short, but “Phantom Creeps” is hard enough to follow in sequence, and might turn someone off even if the main feature is pretty good.
@Mindy: from what I understand, the war footage was cut from the MST version–but your mentioning Neptune Men reminds me that some of the Japanese movies (yeah, I’m looking at you, “Mighty Jack”) are not for the uninitiated–the Gameras took me a while to get into, although they’re among my favourites now. Maybe that’s just me.
The Graduate level one for me was THE CRAWLING HAND….That one dragged on alot…I would doubt a newbie would last five minutes watching that episode.
Starfighters! It takes a strong constitution to handle all that refueling. And don’t get me started on the poopie suits! :pain:
Any season one episode.
@15 — I would have to agree with you about “Mighty Jack.” It’s two episodes of a bad Japanese TV series thrown in a blender with total disregard to the fact that they don’t belong together at all. Even I found it hard to sit through. I don’t even remember the host segments because I was so puzzled over who was who and what was going on in the “movie.”
I’d definitely say Red Zone Cuba is a graduate-level episode, as well as the other Coleman Francis sleepers.
But I’m going to disagree with Manos. The host segments are hilarious and well-paced, the short provides an insulating layer of hilarity, and J&TB do a good job of defusing the darker moments of the movie, right up to booing the ending (+ “Crew!? I do NOT believe they had a crew!”) While certainly not for freshmen, I’d say Manos was a second-year (third-year at worst) episode.
I’m gonna go with three for different reasons:
“Monster-A-Go-Go” because it makes no darn sense and even with the riffing it’s kind of a hard slog — particularly when half the dialogue that they’re springing jokes off of is inaudible or garbled.
“Being From Another Planet” because it’s dull. Nothing happens and for a horror movie few people are actually killed and I find neither the riffing nor the host segments manage to pull it over the top bar.
And now for the probably controversial one….
“Sidehackers”
This one mostly because I find the movie deeply wrong and even with the riffing and the host segments after watching the episode I actually feel greasy. Also, the movie’s violence against and attitudes towards women make the entire movie as “Women in Refrigerators” candidate of the highest order.
I tried to watch “Monster-A-Go-Go” as a newbie and it just left me bewildered. And I, personally, wouldn’t show “Sidehackers” to a newbie either.
As for “Being From Another Planet” I wouldn’t show it to a newbie simply because if this were someone I wanted to hook into the show THIS one is not the way to do it.
Manos was one of my first episodes, shown to me by the woman I’d later marry, and I fell for both the series and the woman.
I’d say Hamlet, because it’s very bad in very different ways than most MST movies are bad, and Catalina Caper for the same reason. I showed that episode to a group of friends, and not a single one of them got it. It’s one of my favorite episodes, though.
Stressfactor:
I’d have to agree with you about “Sidehackers”–I thought about that one, too, probably for the same reason. I’ve seen the original version, and it made me feel even sicker. It’s a watershed episode in terms of the series, of course, but it’s certainly not something I’d pick as an entry-level episode. Even now, it’s not one I’d choose when I want to relax with some MST. Even the other two biker films were better than “Sidehackers.” Does it have its defenders?
I learned my lesson with “Manos” – I tried to get my grandmother into the show with this one. To this day, she refuses to watch another one.
In a similar situation, I introduced my mom to MST3K with “The Atomic Brain”. She fell asleep halfway through. I tried time and again to show her decent episodes, but she kept joining me during stuff like “City Limits” and “The Robot vs. the Aztec Mummy” – all episodes you’ve really got to be a die-hard MSTie to appreciate.
And a couple of years ago, I was converting a friend of mine to MSTiehood, and he was immensely enjoying all the episodes I showed him – until he got to “Gamera vs. Guiron”, which he said he had to turn off after 10 minutes because the movie was just so awful. You’ve really got to be a heavyweight before you can take on Sandy Frank.
Top Ten “Graduate Level” MST3K Episodes
10. “Manos” the Hands of Fate
9. Monster A Go-Go
8. Red Zone Cuba
7. Ring of Terror
6. any Hercules film
5. King Dinosaur
4. Rocket Attack USA
3. Mighty Jack
2. Hamlet
1. The Castle of Fu Manchu
“Invasion of the Neptune Men”, and “Incredibly Strange Creatures…” are two VERY difficult episodes to sit through for me. The former just drags on, and on, and on, and on….
The latter is just like a 90 minute acid trip. Those horrible dance numbers, the ugly costumes, the annoying characters, the mind-numbing nightmare sequence mid-way through the film. Both times I’ve watched this episode I’ve gotten headaches.
Still, I’m able to make it through okay. But they’re two episodes I don’t plan on watching again for the forseeable future.
“Racket Girls”, “Wild World of Batwoman”, and “Night of the Blood Beast.” I would not recommend these to a newbie.
Oddly enough, “Red Zone Cuba” and “Hamlet” I can watch over and over again.
Agreed on any season 1 episode. Trying to introduce any episode in this day and age is difficult as attention spans have grown shorter but those early shows have not aged well and frankly weren’t that good to begin with. But, besides that, I’d say any episode with host segments that require prior knowledge of the characters or past episodes.
And Castle of Fu Manchu is really boring.
I never suggest Manos to potential new fans, I’d start my list of “graduate level” episodes with that one. Here are some other suggestions for that list:
– Mighty Jack (incomprehensible mess, I love it, but not for beginners)
– Castle Of Fu Manchu (as for Mighty Jack)
– Girl In Lover’s Lane (it’s a little too good, you get involved in it and then the ending is horrible)
– Sidehackers (even edited for MST3K the movie is tough going the first time you see this episode)
– Atomic Brain (I still have a tough time with that one, the movie is so dreary)
I’ll throw in with the Hamlet crew on this one. I love it, but many die-hards find it unwatchable, and you really need to have a lot of eps under your belt to deal with it. Plus it is way outside their usual subject matter.
Heck it might even be a post-graduate episode.
Escape From the Bronx. After all these years, still haven’t made it through without falling asleep. Funny episode, BORING movie!
I think Hamlet, saying its the right potential fan (meaning literary person) it could be an gateway episode- but it is a rough version of hamlet for sure.
Monster A Go-Go is a good choice. It’s one of the all-time greatest episodes, but it’s incredibly challenging even, I think, for hardcore MSTies. The movie is excruciating; really no one has any business watching it outside of an MST/Rifftrax scenario. J&TB really rise to it–the jokes are brilliant & layered and the references are obscure & wry–but the riffing moves at the same snail’s pace as the episode, and unless you’re with it from the beginning it’s not as funny. The host segments are some of the best in the series, but they’re really MST3K-centric.
For those who are of a certain young age in 2012 (like my 21-yr-old son and 11-yr-old grandson), even the suggestion of watching something that is black-and-white brings cries of opposition. I don’t understand it, but I have heard the same complaints from others of our youngest generation. So all MST episodes not in color are out for them, whether or not they are a good episode.
That said, I personally find some of the season 10 episodes are difficult for me to get through- they have some good to great moments, but mostly they drag on and the host segments are more bland than anything else. “Track of the Moon Beast” and “Squirm” fall in that category, and “It Lives by Night” and “Merlin’s Shop of Mystical Wonders” are not far behind.
Oh yeah, having recently watched “The Brute Man” for the first time in many, many years, I found myself falling asleep about halfway through, and I wasn’t even tired. So I probably wouldn’t start anyone with that one either.
Finally, totally agree with “The Castle of Fu-Manchu” and “Mighty Jack”. Extremely hard to follow and just plain dull.
Last of the Wild Horses, isn’t “graduate”, it’s sophomoric. ;)
Basically the ultimate exercise in the CC Mike era’s ability to self navel-gaze because they had nothing to say about the movie.
“Graduate” doesn’t imply beating your head against the Castle of Fu Manchu, think the OP meant those you have to have a little battle experience and taste to appreciate the science of riffing the unriffable.
I still stare baffled at those who don’t find “Monster-a-Go-Go” one of the funniest episodes of the entire series, and am ready to take another look at “Samson vs. Vampire Women” once it shows up on disk.
Keep in mind many of these movies were edited for time or content to be shown on MST3K. You can’t blame the director for quick cuts and scenes that don’t make sense because of a bad editing job. That said a lot of these movies are just plain bad and the people that made them didn’t know what they were doing.
Re: Season one —
I always have and always will love with unfettered glee….
Black Scorpion
The host segments are a bit uneven but I love the riffing.
Whenever I see a group of people just kind of standing around I always go “It’s a Milling Around Festival!”
So… just sayin. I love some of Season 1. I also have a fondness for “The Slime People”.
No one has mentioned “Time Chasers.” I hate this episode with a passion. I don’t find “Eddie” funny and during the few times I do bother with that episode, I keep wishing he would just go die in a hole somewhere. I hate the character; he has no business being there at all. The host segments are just not that great. The movie itself makes no sense whatsoever (even though I believe I read somewhere a few years ago that the studio was thrilled when they heard MST3K would be riffing their movie).
I also feel the same way about “Pod People.” Seriously, what’s supposed to be so great about that episode??? To quote the movie’s most infamous phrase: IT STINKS!!
I’d have to go with ‘Beast Of Yucca Flats.’ The episode’s fine, but the frequent references to previously riffed Coleman Francis movies (“It’s the Coffee Guy!”) might get a little confusing.
I, personally, tend to get a little impatient with the Joe Don Baker episodes, but that’s just me.
Pod People, it’s a slow movie and depressing to watch for some. had the experience of showing it to some people not used to the show and they yawned, threw in Space Mutiny and then they got into it. The pacing of the movie and the riffing has a lot of say in convincing the non-believers. I hate to say it, as a some what fanatic of the show, that Screaming Skull actually turned me away for a short while. It wasn’t mst3k, just the movie, but it ruined both. ugh.
There are some episodes I just can’t get through, like Being from Another Planet and City Limits. But I don’t think it would take a graduate level degree to get through them. Some wacky backy would probably do the trick. :P
#38, Laura
Bob Evil would not be amused (not to mention Pink Boy).
Surprised to hear that view of Time Chasers. I think it’s one of, if not
the best movie they featured. Made cheaply by plucky young
cinematographers, it had a coherent, interesting plot. And there
were location scenes (including some nice Vermont rural shots).
Then again, I tend to like time travel type movies, especially when
they don’t end in some dumb time loop paradox.
Even some dated aspects are interesting (the “hero” using floppy
discs, for example).
That German version of Hamlet is certainly up there on the level of unbearable. The riffing is good, but that actual film is just atrocious and hard to sit through even with Mike and the bots. Also, I’d have to say Merlin’s Shop of Mystical Wonders is pretty bad.
I’d say Secret Agent Super Dragon would be for the advanced class/graduate level MSTies. It seemed like a chore for me to get through. Not a lot going on there.
Wherever there are Mike era episodes to criticize EricJ will be there. Without fail.
A few years back I was dating a girl who had absolutely no interest in MST. So I racked my brain trying to come up with an episode that nobody could dislike. Most of the movies mentioned above were immediately rejected because of their graduate-level depth.
Then I thought to myself, “ah ha! Space Mutiny! Who could not love Buff Drinklots dating his mother and screaming at the top of his lungs during the exciting floor buffer chase sequence?”
She hated it and was lost forever as an MST fan.
We broke up not soon after.
But I don’t blame Space Mutiny for being hard to watch for the casual fan. I blame her!
My personal first episode was Mitchell and I was hooked for life!
Roll Fizzlebeef!
“Mighty Jack”. This piece of crap honestly surprised Mst3k managed to make fun of in the first place.
KTMA and early Season 1 would definitely be required viewing for anyone writing their thesis on the formation of the show/characters and the early evolution of the format. The pacing is too slow to watch those episodes for any other reason.
Now Hamlet’s one of my favorite episodes. It’s easily one of the most juvenile episodes they ever did; fart jokes a-plenty. Yeah, it’s a talky film, but they have some great bits.
Speaking from experience, the first episode my fiancee tried to watch was Space Mutiny; she had me turn it off after about half an hour. But when we tried Werewolf, she was laughing hysterically. Same with Mitchell. And she prefers Mike.
Monster A Go-Go
Manos
Fu-manchu
Red Zone Cuba
I adore all 4 of those episodes and yet, they are AWFUL, AWFUL films. True tests of endurance.